Litmus
By the way, I had never thought that my casual remark about cable directionality could provoke so many comments. The good thing of the previous discussion is that it gave a clear picture of who is sane and insane.
For me, it was a beautiful litmus test.
By the way, I had never thought that my casual remark about cable directionality could provoke so many comments. The good thing of the previous discussion is that it gave a clear picture of who is sane and insane.
For me, it was a beautiful litmus test.
Then again, there is more to the cable directionality than meets the eye. For many, many years, people have made a practise of screening their unbalanced cables and connecting the screen to gnd at only one side. The idea was that the source should drive the shield, but to avoid ground loops the shield should not be connected at the sink end.
To remember which side had to be connected to the source, they put an arrow label on the source end, pointing to the other end. The message was: this end to the source, the other end to the sink.
It is my believe that this sound engineering practise was hijacked by the unknowing and/or unscrupulous with the well-known result.
Edit: I believe that in the case of the ad I posted above, that a statistically valid DBT would also be acceptable as "robust scientific evidence".
Jan Didden
To remember which side had to be connected to the source, they put an arrow label on the source end, pointing to the other end. The message was: this end to the source, the other end to the sink.
It is my believe that this sound engineering practise was hijacked by the unknowing and/or unscrupulous with the well-known result.
Edit: I believe that in the case of the ad I posted above, that a statistically valid DBT would also be acceptable as "robust scientific evidence".
Jan Didden
Why don't you guys solve transformers, cables, directionality, DBT etc. in the appropriate threads??
There is almost nothing about preamps here!!!
There is almost nothing about preamps here!!!
PMA said:
Because the "expert" is busy milking his one lousy accomplishment for all it's worth.
I'm interested in building my own pre-amp, but I think I'll just op-amp it. Good enough for the girls I go out with.
KBK said:
So if all the known engineering science which says that cable directionality doesn't exist is wrong (which it just conceivably might be if we're not measuring the right things) and it affects the sound in a way that some people (with "golden ears") say that they can definitely hear...
...then they should definitely be able to hear it in a controlled double blind test.
Put up or shut up 🙂
Ian
But Pavel, you as an engineer, you wouldn't blindly believe everything they throw at you without *some* supporting evidence or back-up? Why do you expect us to do it?
Jan Didden
Jan Didden
Jan,
I usually do not assess something that I do not know quite in the deep. That's why I am silent in this cable directional issue.
I usually do not assess something that I do not know quite in the deep. That's why I am silent in this cable directional issue.
PMA said:
I don't think you need anything beyond a degree in engineering to ***** this. But then I understand that sometimes is conveniently better to keep your mouth shut, in particular when you are at risk of annoying your endorsment support. It's not good for business 😀
I am neither retired yet, nor unemployed, and I really do not have time enough to participate in every useless quarrel.
PIM
Sorry, I mean 6704, i.e. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1540542#post1540542
PMA said:
Sorry, I mean 6704, i.e. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1540542#post1540542
Hi Edmond,
I can see your point.
Here is my answer - I do not care if we call it PIM or else. I am saying that a response to a sine wave (with zero crossing derivative far below slew rate limit, and though it was turned on at some moment, i.e. not steady state) must be exactly same for all amplitudes, and may differ only in the magnitude. This was not the case in my simulations for 5532, e.g.
Passive RC circuit and properly designed active circuit do not show such a behaviour. So, when I see phase shifts in zero crossing (what else would it be), I am saying it is wrong.
I can see your point.
Here is my answer - I do not care if we call it PIM or else. I am saying that a response to a sine wave (with zero crossing derivative far below slew rate limit, and though it was turned on at some moment, i.e. not steady state) must be exactly same for all amplitudes, and may differ only in the magnitude. This was not the case in my simulations for 5532, e.g.
Passive RC circuit and properly designed active circuit do not show such a behaviour. So, when I see phase shifts in zero crossing (what else would it be), I am saying it is wrong.
On second thought, I might make a point about 'open-minded-ness' a concept that has been put to sleep around here. Of course, we have to be 'politically correct'. I cannot impugn someone because of their country of origin or background, that is a no-no. However, if someone wants to call someone a 'crook' or a 'scammer' without real proof, they are almost praised for being forthright in their opinion.
Yet there is no 'proof' that no audio cable has 'directionality' or not. Maybe some cables are made so that they actually behave somewhat differently. My past associates seem to think so, and they were quick to make changes in a 'reversed' cable at a CES show for example. Of course, they want the best sound possible, not to sit on their behinds and let someone else, more aggressive and careful to have better sound quality than them. This is how we 'won' listening contests over the past 10 years. Now with Bob Crump and his associates gone, I can never hope to get so much sound quality from a given space and available equipment, just like as if I was in car race circuit and I lost my master mechanic.
This brings out a memory from 50 years ago:
I was sitting in a Greyhound bus from Colorado to California, traveling across a desert when the guy next to me started up a conversation. He told me that he had a relative who raced Porsches, but he got into trouble with the company, BECAUSE he would not follow their specific instructions on engine set-up, and EVEN THOUGH HE WON his races, they fired him for not following what they considered the RIGHT way to view and do things. That goes against the American grain, as we like to do what WORKS, rather than what is considered proper and correct by higher authority. Think about it, fellow engineers.
Yet there is no 'proof' that no audio cable has 'directionality' or not. Maybe some cables are made so that they actually behave somewhat differently. My past associates seem to think so, and they were quick to make changes in a 'reversed' cable at a CES show for example. Of course, they want the best sound possible, not to sit on their behinds and let someone else, more aggressive and careful to have better sound quality than them. This is how we 'won' listening contests over the past 10 years. Now with Bob Crump and his associates gone, I can never hope to get so much sound quality from a given space and available equipment, just like as if I was in car race circuit and I lost my master mechanic.
This brings out a memory from 50 years ago:
I was sitting in a Greyhound bus from Colorado to California, traveling across a desert when the guy next to me started up a conversation. He told me that he had a relative who raced Porsches, but he got into trouble with the company, BECAUSE he would not follow their specific instructions on engine set-up, and EVEN THOUGH HE WON his races, they fired him for not following what they considered the RIGHT way to view and do things. That goes against the American grain, as we like to do what WORKS, rather than what is considered proper and correct by higher authority. Think about it, fellow engineers.
iand said:
Golden Ears are known to never take DBX blind tests.
There are so many reasons,
they say, why double blind test is a flaw & not scientific correct.
🙂 Ever wondered why?
My opinion on this, I have stated numerous time here, in the past.
The end result, for all of us interested in audio matters is this:
🙂 1. We know very littel about if claims 'hearing difference' are real and true = They can hear this & they can hear that.
🙂 2. We do not know which ones are not correct.
And this is a pity, bcause we would not want to cheat our selves.
Even if fairy tales are nice entertainment 🙂
Lineup
Post Script. PS.
=======================================
some few test results, however:
Web site:
David Carlstrom's Home Page:
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/
'I was one of six partners who formed the ABX Company
which designed, manufactured, and sold the ABX Double Blind Comparator.'
salesmanship
Okay, sounds reasonable, just as reasonable as asking Bob Cordell for an objective opinion about your designs and, of course, totally ignoring your own story. I'm sure you have no objections if I do just that, do you? 😀
john curl said:
Okay, sounds reasonable, just as reasonable as asking Bob Cordell for an objective opinion about your designs and, of course, totally ignoring your own story. I'm sure you have no objections if I do just that, do you? 😀
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