I've heard cryo-ed RCA cables. Compared to the non-cryo-ed, this one reveals more detail, but at the same time sound rather harsh.
Maybe there's a connection between hardness of material with sound. Something to do with magnetic properties.
Maybe there's a connection between hardness of material with sound. Something to do with magnetic properties.
OT
I have no idea. 🙂
This was only a reply as i got the impression from fizzard´s posts, that he had doubts regarding any positive effect from cryogenic treatment.
I am not aware of any paper on this subject for the materials you´ve mentioned. (Despite the fact that copper is quite often choosen for very low temperature installments as it is less prone to embrittlement under these conditions).
What about audibility? I don´t know, never tried it myself, but if for example Ed Meitner thinks there is something to hear (he did some experiments roughly twenty years ago), then that might be a reason to give it a try.
I remember that he wrotes about treating some converter ic samples (wasn´t it for Analog Devices??) and so i read with interest what Scott Wurcer posted about their customer that got cryogenic treated d/a converters.
Let´s assume Scott was serious about it. 🙂
BTW, would it be a problem, if cryogenic treatment leads (can lead to) audible differences?
It would just be a matter of proper science to find the underlying principles, quantify the effects and in the end seperate useful applications from others.
Jakob2
I have no idea. 🙂
This was only a reply as i got the impression from fizzard´s posts, that he had doubts regarding any positive effect from cryogenic treatment.
I am not aware of any paper on this subject for the materials you´ve mentioned. (Despite the fact that copper is quite often choosen for very low temperature installments as it is less prone to embrittlement under these conditions).
What about audibility? I don´t know, never tried it myself, but if for example Ed Meitner thinks there is something to hear (he did some experiments roughly twenty years ago), then that might be a reason to give it a try.
I remember that he wrotes about treating some converter ic samples (wasn´t it for Analog Devices??) and so i read with interest what Scott Wurcer posted about their customer that got cryogenic treated d/a converters.
Let´s assume Scott was serious about it. 🙂
BTW, would it be a problem, if cryogenic treatment leads (can lead to) audible differences?
It would just be a matter of proper science to find the underlying principles, quantify the effects and in the end seperate useful applications from others.
Jakob2
Aluminum has different result with a certain heat treatment.
Anybody knows what is the difference of a cryo-ed aluminum stuff?
Anybody knows what is the difference of a cryo-ed aluminum stuff?
Jakob2 said:
It would have been much more fun had he sent all identical ones.
But if you take a glance at Mr Wurcer's picture you'd reckon him to be pretty serious. (maybe surprised even he has a sense of humor)
Some folks might feel there's some universality in things.
Take feedback systems, same stuff that works for electronics does wonders in logistics, system-dynamics anyone ?
(afaih, it's only done with aluminum to lower residual stresses. Easier with alloy boats, you just bang 'm around for a while
)
fizzard said:
These treatments were arrived at by lots of empirical R&D testing over long periods of time, to solve real problems effecting real applications, and were advertised NOWHERE. That, my friend, is the "reality".
Best Regards, Chuck Hansen
janneman said:
The only reason "cryoing" works with metals is because quenching in water or oil also works. LN2 has a low heat capacity, so quenching in LN2 doesn't work as well as ordinary tap water, even though it's much colder. It's mostly just a gimmick, it doesn't do anything bad enough to justify not using it, but water or oil works better. Some critical applications require hydrogen free alloy, so they can't be quenced in water or oil, so they use LN2, or even just dried, compressed air. There's nothing "magic."
lumanauw said:
Our metallurgist said we don't use cryo treatments on aluminum because there are already so many alloys available with the properties we need. There are mentions on Google, though.
Best, Chuck Hansen
jacco vermeulen said:
Hi Jacco, nope, no relation. I'm not related to Charles Hansen on this forum either.
Best, Chuck Hansen
I generally don't like to mention the TRUE state-of-the-art audio techniques that Charles Hansen and I do, because of the ignorant backwash that continually gets thrown back. This is why my motto is: "Prejudice is condemnation, without examination."
People who work in the audio business, marvel that I even try to reason with anyone here, and many times they don't really care WHY something works, just that it does.
At the time that PMA asked whether I had woken up yet, I had just done so on my living room sofa in front of the TV. There was a science program on about mice.
Apparently there is a Navaho tradition, (and Indian tribe in the SW USA) that if a mouse touches your clothing, you must burn it. Wow, pagan taboo in action, you might say. No, real wisdom.
It so happens that mice in that region carry the Hanta virus and it can mutate and be picked up by humans. It can be deadly to humans, and mice in flight or whatever, pee over everything they touch and spread the virus. It doesn't necessarily kill the mice, but it sometimes will kill the humans. I wonder how many centuries it took of noting the correlation, before this tradition was started. Many of you would have rather risked getting the virus than to follow this rule, that's for sure.
It just shows how DIFFICULT it is to know everything. In fact, there is much more known, even in science, but it is classified by the military. This is frustrating, but considered necessary.
People who work in the audio business, marvel that I even try to reason with anyone here, and many times they don't really care WHY something works, just that it does.
At the time that PMA asked whether I had woken up yet, I had just done so on my living room sofa in front of the TV. There was a science program on about mice.
Apparently there is a Navaho tradition, (and Indian tribe in the SW USA) that if a mouse touches your clothing, you must burn it. Wow, pagan taboo in action, you might say. No, real wisdom.
It so happens that mice in that region carry the Hanta virus and it can mutate and be picked up by humans. It can be deadly to humans, and mice in flight or whatever, pee over everything they touch and spread the virus. It doesn't necessarily kill the mice, but it sometimes will kill the humans. I wonder how many centuries it took of noting the correlation, before this tradition was started. Many of you would have rather risked getting the virus than to follow this rule, that's for sure.
It just shows how DIFFICULT it is to know everything. In fact, there is much more known, even in science, but it is classified by the military. This is frustrating, but considered necessary.
OT
@ Fizzard,
isn´t that sort of a misunderstanding?
Normally cryogenic treatment isn´t the same as quenching, just a controlled slow process of cooling down, hold at low temperature and in the end a slow warmup process to normal temperature.
Afair the metallurgical explanation implied the transformation from remaining austenit to martensit during this cryogenic process.
That is the reason for improved hardness, but could lead to reduced hardiness, so has to be carefully choosen for certain purposes.
Jakob2
@ Fizzard,
isn´t that sort of a misunderstanding?
Normally cryogenic treatment isn´t the same as quenching, just a controlled slow process of cooling down, hold at low temperature and in the end a slow warmup process to normal temperature.
Afair the metallurgical explanation implied the transformation from remaining austenit to martensit during this cryogenic process.
That is the reason for improved hardness, but could lead to reduced hardiness, so has to be carefully choosen for certain purposes.
Jakob2
fizzard said:
Not magic, but the intelligent persistence by human beings to discover, by observation, objective measurement, or subjective comparison, the differences between one phenomenon and another. GE and Westinghouse found out the hard way in nuclear submarine power plant design that if the reactor vessel had any copper in the steel alloy, the steel would become embrittled. This had never been seen before the steel alloys were exposed to high levels of radiation for long periods of time.
If John and others have determined that cryo treated silver wire has a better sound than non-cryo silver or copper, and they have put in the necessary time to do a thorough sonic evaluation, who am I to say what they have heard or have not heard? Intelligent persistence on their part!
Best, Chuck Hansen
Fizzard, quenching is NOT cryoing. Cryoing is a SLOW process, with vastly different results. You don't even know the definition. The difference has been noted by others in the past.
For example, you just can't dip a component into liquid nitrogen and get the same result as a closely controlled cool down and warm up.
We are not treating fish here, which would have the opposite effect . Did you know that, Fizzard. Do you know about flash freezing and WHY it is done? What could be the difference between just cooling something slowly and doing it quickly?
For example, you just can't dip a component into liquid nitrogen and get the same result as a closely controlled cool down and warm up.
We are not treating fish here, which would have the opposite effect . Did you know that, Fizzard. Do you know about flash freezing and WHY it is done? What could be the difference between just cooling something slowly and doing it quickly?
Just to clarify things, Chuck. We BURN IN our silver wire, rather than cryo it. Jack Bybee cryos his devices to save later burn in by the customer. A review of Jack Bybee's devices is also in 'The Absolute Sound' this month, and while Dick Osher (the reviewer) is a physicist, he can't talk about the process that is going on in the devices, due to (nobody knows exactly, what people do know is classified, and he previously signed a non-disclosure agreement with Jack Bybee years ago. IF you had ever had to 'burn in' a Bybee device, then you know WHY Jack Bybee cryos them in advance.
Many years ago, Jack Bybee tried super cooling components by dipping them into liquid nitrogen. He said that it didn't work. See Fizzard, we are all ignorant at some point in our lives. The trick is to get as far along as we can with what we know, and keep an open mind about new concepts. OF COURSE, some people will try to make an extra buck selling you a 'magic bracelet' (although, I would not condemn it, because I haven't tried it), but these people fall by the wayside after a while. People lose interest, if it is just 'suggestion' as noted by SY.
Many years ago, Jack Bybee tried super cooling components by dipping them into liquid nitrogen. He said that it didn't work. See Fizzard, we are all ignorant at some point in our lives. The trick is to get as far along as we can with what we know, and keep an open mind about new concepts. OF COURSE, some people will try to make an extra buck selling you a 'magic bracelet' (although, I would not condemn it, because I haven't tried it), but these people fall by the wayside after a while. People lose interest, if it is just 'suggestion' as noted by SY.
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