I thought there was a lot more to the Hanta-Navajo story ?
Reminds me of the Moslim left-hand trick, once past the facial cover-up those people make a lot of sense.
My g/f worked in Cameroun for Docs-sans-Cash, more traditions than food overthere.
(Pavel, if you hold a transistor to your ear maybe you'll hear John Johnson.
)
Reminds me of the Moslim left-hand trick, once past the facial cover-up those people make a lot of sense.
My g/f worked in Cameroun for Docs-sans-Cash, more traditions than food overthere.
(Pavel, if you hold a transistor to your ear maybe you'll hear John Johnson.
)
janneman said:
Grey, my comment about burn-in was serious and the same applies to cryo (maybe less so). Why a priori are these things thought to be improvements? No one would think a 2000hr burn-in improves a plasma TV (well maybe no one). I don't think anyone would argue that an LP gets better at each play, possibly one or two play/clean cycles. Why isn't there ever some 'goodness' put in at the factory that starts getting lost as something is used?
jacco vermeulen said:
I've been to Cardiff, I could live in Wales gladly if the need came to pass.
john curl said:
I've seen plasma TV's with 2000 hr. of 'burn-in'. I love KitKat's and I tried the green tea ones in Japan, but I didn't like them either.
Slightly OT. In regards to Mr. Curls post about the Navajo tradition with Mice touching your clothing, do you burn the clothing or the mouse?
The clothing, silly. Catching and burning the mouse would not remove the virus laden pee that it has already put on the clothing. I wish that I had tenure, because I would be passing out coins for you to call your mother. 
I am a retired telephony engineer, as such I know that long distance telephony wire is made with a relatively high steel content. This is because copper is a soft metal and sags under it's own weight. Adding the steel reduces sag. Ordinary house wire also has a high steel content so it can be "pulled" through conduit and walls.
Now if apply my admittedly limited knowledge of physics; the resultant wire has magnetic domains. At some current level as current reverses direction these domains will flip facing one way and then the other with AC current.
To flip a domain must require at least some energy, the only source of energy is the signal so it follows that a cable with steel content will affect the signal flowing through it when the domains flip.
I assume this was a significant contributor to the higher purity copper so prevalent in "exotic" audio cables. I do not know if purity due to the presence of other metals also counts, some of this notion may well be shot-gunning. i.e. if one alloy is bad, all alloys must be bad.
I also do not know if cryo treatment has any effect on magnetic properties of conductors. I do know that this domain hysteresis is small and doesn't show up with traditional cable measurement tools (Ohms, group delay, capacitance, inductance)
Forgive me if this has been covered earlier in the thread.
Now if apply my admittedly limited knowledge of physics; the resultant wire has magnetic domains. At some current level as current reverses direction these domains will flip facing one way and then the other with AC current.
To flip a domain must require at least some energy, the only source of energy is the signal so it follows that a cable with steel content will affect the signal flowing through it when the domains flip.
I assume this was a significant contributor to the higher purity copper so prevalent in "exotic" audio cables. I do not know if purity due to the presence of other metals also counts, some of this notion may well be shot-gunning. i.e. if one alloy is bad, all alloys must be bad.
I also do not know if cryo treatment has any effect on magnetic properties of conductors. I do know that this domain hysteresis is small and doesn't show up with traditional cable measurement tools (Ohms, group delay, capacitance, inductance)
Forgive me if this has been covered earlier in the thread.
I have another serious blowtorch question. I have a plumber friend and I can get some cut-offs of thick wall copper pipe in big sizes. Would these make a good enclosure? I was thinking of soldering a cap on one end (with a blowtorch of course ) and screwing a cap down tight on the other end. If it could be made tight enough I might even fill it with inert gas like the wine preserving stuff. I could call it "pipe bomb" or something else clever.
) and screwing a cap down tight on the other end. If it could be made tight enough I might even fill it with inert gas like the wine preserving stuff. I could call it "pipe bomb" or something else clever.Mr. Curl, Please forgive me for my humor, but it is good to keep things a little light. If you get to serious, then we start to get the impression of anger in our conversations when there is disagreement. I am also the one who made the comment of the spittoon heat duct on the amp design being mistaken for a commode.
I like reading this thread, because there is good discussion of the different things that can affect the audio signal. Your knowledge and experience is far beyond mine in the realm of electronics, audio in particular. While I may not agree with all of your beliefs, I also haven't experimented as much as you. Comination of time, ambition and monetary resources conspires against me.
Having rambled off topic here, Thank you for giving us some of your time and keep pushing things forward!
Peace,
Dave
P.S. Personally, I would have burned the clothes and the mouse, but that's just me😀
I like reading this thread, because there is good discussion of the different things that can affect the audio signal. Your knowledge and experience is far beyond mine in the realm of electronics, audio in particular. While I may not agree with all of your beliefs, I also haven't experimented as much as you. Comination of time, ambition and monetary resources conspires against me.
Having rambled off topic here, Thank you for giving us some of your time and keep pushing things forward!
Peace,
Dave
P.S. Personally, I would have burned the clothes and the mouse, but that's just me😀
do you mean there is a steel wire in with the bundle of copper wires or do you mean there is some Fe in with the copper to make the copper alloy stronger?hermanv said:
scott wurcer said:
Well, there is that old technology called "tubes".
I believe that they suffer from degradation over time, which is why (despite their ability to sound wonderful in a properly designed product) we don't use them in our designs.
A few other electronic components known to degrade over time include electrolytic capacitors and uncoated copper. Some of the original audio cables would use a *very* fine gauge conductor in their designs. After several years the corrosion (much of it due to outgassing from the polymer jacket, I believe) would get to the point where the finer strands had virtually disintegrated.
I would say that the main products that improve over time are dielectrics (insulators). This is one of the main reasons that cables, capacitors, and PCB's all sound better after an extended break-in period.
As far as a mechanism, here is one plausible one (at least at the "hand-waving" level). In general, both wires and capacitors (I don't know if this applies to PCB materials) receive one final test after they are manufactured -- a high voltage is applied to them to ensure that there are no faults in the insulation. This could be large enough to polarize the dielectric to some degree (much like an electret used in an electret microphone). When an audio signal is applied, this polarization would dissipate over time. Elevated temperatures would also accelerate this process. (Please note that I am not saying this is 100% for-sure the mechanism, but just a plausible suggestion.)
I think that it is also physical realignment of the domains in the metal after being worked into its final form. I have seen physical evidence of this, reported.
My thoughts are that in Fizzards situation the intensity of the wear levels are too high to do much more than minimal changes. A way of looking at it is if cryoing a thin sheet of steel and then hitting it with bullets. The bullets go through regardless, no matter if it is cryoed or not. The differences would be so minimal so as to be of little to no importance. The stress loading is far too extreme. Only Fizzard knows this aspect and would have to fill in that blank himself.
In the case of making casing for bullets, etc, the stress loading is adjusted with regards to materials etc to create as long a wear consideration as possible..and at that point the minimal changes due to cryoing come to bear as an obvious change. It's apples and oranges, I expect, due to loading levels and similar considerations. Both sides of that argument spell it out clearly, just by the reading.
As stated, only Fizzard knows the load levels involved on his side of the argument, the other is quite clear. But we do know the loading type and level is a quite significant factor, with regards to cryo effectiveness, and the same plays out in audibility. It's not a gross thing.
I suspect if his metals issue was brought back to a specific minimal wear and loading consideration, then the cryoing would show positive effect.
In the case of making casing for bullets, etc, the stress loading is adjusted with regards to materials etc to create as long a wear consideration as possible..and at that point the minimal changes due to cryoing come to bear as an obvious change. It's apples and oranges, I expect, due to loading levels and similar considerations. Both sides of that argument spell it out clearly, just by the reading.
As stated, only Fizzard knows the load levels involved on his side of the argument, the other is quite clear. But we do know the loading type and level is a quite significant factor, with regards to cryo effectiveness, and the same plays out in audibility. It's not a gross thing.
I suspect if his metals issue was brought back to a specific minimal wear and loading consideration, then the cryoing would show positive effect.
When we discuss things that affect sound, I found something when making classD amps. PCB tracks are bad. Try to minimize all the PCB tracks, the sound is better. Not just the component placement, but the length of the tracks is important. They behave as L and C (in double sided PCB or parrarel tracks). The higher the impedance of the destination point, the shorter the better. The PCB won't look as good, but perform better sonically.
Experiment with gainclone (with and without PCB, the same schematic) can give a clue.
Experiment with gainclone (with and without PCB, the same schematic) can give a clue.
scott wurcer said:I have another serious blowtorch question. I have a plumber friend and I can get some cut-offs of thick wall copper pipe in big sizes. Would these make a good enclosure? I was thinking of soldering a cap on one end (with a blowtorch of course
An excellent solid copper enclosure using 4" X 9" 40mil thick copper sheets that can be purchased in hobby stores (Small Parts inc also sells sheet copper). I use a dremel and their 409 cutting blade to cut the various panel pieces without distorting the edges and then sweat solder the joints using plumbing solder and a propane torch. With a bit of planning you can drill the holes for connectors and pcb mounting hardware in advance. If it wasn't for the need to connect to the outside world you could fill it full of nitrogen...
I recently built a MC amp enclosure that turned out quite nice. I'll post a picture this evening if I remember.
Mike.
yes, the dynamic considerations of LCR through the skin effect regions are quite audbile, when it comes to being one of the factors that need be taken care of, with regards to 'the highest end' design. Sweat all details, and the parts become the whole.
Making an enclosure that allows for external connections, while also being gas tight is not an impossible task. It requires much more planning than a conventional enclosure, but it is certainly do-able. I work for a company that makes semiconductor equipment. We have vacuum chambers that process wafers using combinations of pressure, heat and high voltage. We routinely pass power signals into the vacuum chamber without any problems.
Peace,
Dave
Peace,
Dave
I learn this the hard way. PCB tracks will behave differently, depending on the impedance of the destination point. If the destination point is high impedance like solely base/gate of a transistor, the tracks becomes antenna plus an inductor. Calculated, it might be small (nH), but big enough compared to the signal that a base/gate usually receive.
Try to put bleeder component (B-E resistor/capacitor or base-ground resistors/capacitors or base-rails resistor/capacitor) very near to base and emitor/ground/rail.
Try to put bleeder component (B-E resistor/capacitor or base-ground resistors/capacitors or base-rails resistor/capacitor) very near to base and emitor/ground/rail.
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