I have put in a polarity inversion switch since 1981, or so. The latest Parasound JC-2 has it on the remote control. Then you can REALLY find out whether you can hear it.
I find it curious that anyone should even try to advance the idea of phase shift between a drum and the mic recording it as a crucial point. Just how far away do you place the mics from the drums, anyway? At 1100 ft/sec, I don't think you're going to find a significant shift between the drum and the mic, particularly since we're mostly talking about kick drums, i.e. instruments with dominant low frequency content, hence long wavelengths. And your mic is how far away from the drum at the fundamental frequency? And just how many degrees of phase rotation does that work out to?
I don't know about recording conventions in European studios, but over here the mic is generally as close to the drum head as it can get without actually touching it...not thirty feet away.
To throw up your hands and wail "It's all too murky. I won't even try!" is rather a cop out in my opinion--particularly since phase is so easy to preserve electronically, and easy to make adjustable for the user.
No, it's not the single most important parameter in the world, but why not at least default to non-inverting designs even if you don't put in a switch?
Jeez.
Grey
I don't know about recording conventions in European studios, but over here the mic is generally as close to the drum head as it can get without actually touching it...not thirty feet away.
To throw up your hands and wail "It's all too murky. I won't even try!" is rather a cop out in my opinion--particularly since phase is so easy to preserve electronically, and easy to make adjustable for the user.
No, it's not the single most important parameter in the world, but why not at least default to non-inverting designs even if you don't put in a switch?
Jeez.
Grey
KSTR said:
Hi Klaus,
Forty years ago, I worked for Phonogram, a daughter company of Philips (later of DGG). There, they always checked the polarity of their equipment.
Cheers,
Edmond.
Thanks for that. In the old days, the classical guys would get it right.Edmond Stuart said:
- Klaus
Misinterpration again, it seems.GRollins said:
I bet Jan actually meant with "phase relationship" polarity (once again) of the dominant attack (which depends only on how the drum is miked, take a tambourine as the most ambivalent example), not any phase shift within the waveform due to dispersion or the like.
- Klaus
Not very common if you want a realistic and deep drum sound and not only a crunchy trigger pulse...GRollins said:
john curl said:
Of course not. When I found the pod under my bed, I killed it
right away.
So John, do you have an opinion on the critical frequency band for
absolute polarity and relative phase shift?
I think that many here would do well to 'get up to speed' when discussing 'absolute polarity' As I said before, many engineers have looked at the problem over the last 40 years, and their papers should be studied first, before some sort of intelligent debate can be made on the subject.
The second alternative is to just TRY it. Yes, just trust your ears. IF you find it a real problem for YOU and your audio playback system, make sure that you can easily and effectively reverse phase, without adding or subtracting too much from your system. IF not (like me) then relax and enjoy the music.
The second alternative is to just TRY it. Yes, just trust your ears. IF you find it a real problem for YOU and your audio playback system, make sure that you can easily and effectively reverse phase, without adding or subtracting too much from your system. IF not (like me) then relax and enjoy the music.
Everyone of us, who not only design, but listen and evaluate in listening tests, know that absolute phase (reverse of speaker box polarity in both channels simultaneously) is audible. "All pass" tests are nonsense. I do not see any reason to argue with people who do not have enough own experience.
I agree, PMA. Allpass tests (phase shifters) do NOT work! It has been explained (barely) in the Schroeder paper that I cited from 1975, why this is so.
I have a story on absolute phase audibility topic. Few years ago we compared one of my preamps to another units. My was inverting, so I always reversed speaker cables. During afternoon I left the audience and they were exchanging preamps themselves. After I returned they told me something was wrong with the sound. They did not reverse speaker cables for my preamp, of course. So I reversed the cables and everything was OK again. So the people who did now nothing about absolute phase heard the difference and classified the problem.
PMA said:
Point taken. I think I'll leave those who wish to ignore the topic stew in their own juices.
john curl said:
Assuming a digital all-pass, then the idea's a non-starter, at least for a signal in the analog domain.
Assuming an analog all-pass, they have bandwidth limitations, something I'd rather avoid.
Either way, you've got more circuitry in the signal path. This is supposed to be good for the sound quality? The cure is worse than the disease.
Getting the phase right is the ideal thing to do at all frequencies, but I regard it as more audible and important at low frequencies where it's less affected by small incremental placement issues.
Grey
No, Nelson, read up on it, yourself. It is just too difficult to transcribe Schroeder's paper here.
Models of hearing, Schroeder, M.R., Proceedings of the IEEE, Sept. 1975, Vol: 63, Issue: 9, pp: 1332- 1350
still on my shelf
still on my shelf
PMA said:
I've known that absolute phase can be audible since I was about 16.
Who here, so far, has argued that the audibility of absolute phase is an impossibility?
Who exactly (to quote somebody else) is stewing "in their own juices"?
jam said:What happened to this thread?
...............................more blow and no torch!
Politeness doesn’t seem to be a virtue over this thread so bear with it.
Tony,
.....................sad to that you are right, maybe a new thread (Blowtorch 2) is in order, so we can get back to the topic at hand. 🙄
Regards,
Jam
.....................sad to that you are right, maybe a new thread (Blowtorch 2) is in order, so we can get back to the topic at hand. 🙄
Regards,
Jam
Let's see, 4739 posts. Many by John Curl arguably one of the best solid state audio designers alive, who has no obligation to share anything and you're impatient?jam said:What happened to this thread?
...............................more blow and no torch!
I guess it's true, there's no politeness left.
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