KBK said:
Once such tests will be conducted, the gap between measured results and audible results may be gone.
It is also important to remember that the square wave response will have all of these components in it, but it will be relatively useless, if it is to be looked at closely to reveal the needed information.
What is necessary, is to look at various levels of response in a predload condition, as preload will affect the transient response.
Since this is the very essence of a complex music signal (read:complex harmonic) harmonic 'on the fly', it is going to require a through analysis and deciding on set standard of transient measure under a standardized set of pre-load conditions.
Once a computerized high rez signal is figured out, measuring an amplifier or what have you and comparing that to the human sonic comparatives of the same DUT will be incredibly easy.
And they --WILL-- correlate.
It is important to understand that the pre-load I speak of is a an ACTIVE (change/delta) and OR passive (continuous) condition, ie a flow rate with change or not...it is both that need to be measured and then charted. For example..is the preload increasing in value..or is it decreasing? either condition, with respects to how it will handle the correct placement of a transient-will be different.
Then superimpose your transient upon it-note the change in perfection from what a perfect reproduction of that transient might be.
If you know anything at all about measurement of electronics, or more specifically the reaction of the electronics device to such measurement..... it then becomes abundantly clear that these conditions will show tremendous distortions compared to the ideal transient response.
I have known these things for years. For me, personally..knowing this has been more than enough. All analysis of parts, components, and complex systems has been done this way by me for over a decade. Closer to 15 years, now. I've largely kept it to myself, but it has never failed to be a major component of revealing the reasons for the sonic signature of a given device.
What is necessary, is to look at various levels of response in a predload condition, as preload will affect the transient response.
Since this is the very essence of a complex music signal (read:complex harmonic) harmonic 'on the fly', it is going to require a through analysis and deciding on set standard of transient measure under a standardized set of pre-load conditions.
Once a computerized high rez signal is figured out, measuring an amplifier or what have you and comparing that to the human sonic comparatives of the same DUT will be incredibly easy.
And they --WILL-- correlate.
It is important to understand that the pre-load I speak of is a an ACTIVE (change/delta) and OR passive (continuous) condition, ie a flow rate with change or not...it is both that need to be measured and then charted. For example..is the preload increasing in value..or is it decreasing? either condition, with respects to how it will handle the correct placement of a transient-will be different.
Then superimpose your transient upon it-note the change in perfection from what a perfect reproduction of that transient might be.
If you know anything at all about measurement of electronics, or more specifically the reaction of the electronics device to such measurement..... it then becomes abundantly clear that these conditions will show tremendous distortions compared to the ideal transient response.
I have known these things for years. For me, personally..knowing this has been more than enough. All analysis of parts, components, and complex systems has been done this way by me for over a decade. Closer to 15 years, now. I've largely kept it to myself, but it has never failed to be a major component of revealing the reasons for the sonic signature of a given device.
KBK said:
KBK,
I'm not entirely sure I follow you. But when you talk about mains cable and IEC connector being 'audible', do you mean that there is an audible difference between, for instance, types of IEC connectors? How would these different types of connectors then lead to different signals at the speaker? And why can't we measure those (knowing that we can measure far, far more sensitive then any golden ear is)?
Jan Didden
KBK,
Your measurements sound like the way to go.
There is one expected addition – with power amps, the load should be loudspeakers, not purely resistive.
Your measurements sound like the way to go.
There is one expected addition – with power amps, the load should be loudspeakers, not purely resistive.
janneman said:
That's the part where we disagree, certain aspects are easy to hear but difficult to measure.
sounds like a plea for SMTPE IM measurement.
Unfortunately the $5 chips perform very well on this. 😕
Regards
Unfortunately the $5 chips perform very well on this. 😕
Regards
jacco vermeulen said:Joshua,
you do ridicule someone : yourself.
Each and everyone of your claims is unsubstantiated, highly biased and full of prejudice ;
-You are a 65 year old guy who claims more accurate hearing than most.
-You've confessed a negative attitude towards "engineers" several times, based on your prior experiences.
-You condemn everyone who thinks differently from you.
-You even go as far as assuming someone disagrees with Mr Curl because of disagreeing with you.
You have audio mag reader written all over nearly each of your posts since november last, and you're likely the only one present who did not notice it.
Jacco, I agree with your logic and observation, but I bet Joshua doesn't even recognise there being anything at all odd about a 65 year old having more accurate hearing than most (or he will argue that his experience enables him to make better use of what he has left). His posts read as instant responses without self observation, that come out of him as attempts to ridicule those that post logical thought. A shame really because he may have useful things to contribute, but until he works out how to participtae he won't get most of us taking him seriously.
One of the things that well grounded engineers develop is a wide range bs detector, and I think that may be missing here.
janneman said:
Too true, I am starting to realise that HiFi is really about dreams. It can be an attempt to re-create the dreamy memories of the good times we've all had whilst listening to music, if you will, the sound track of the movie of our lives.
In a word it is about 'emotions'. But the emotions we seek are not actually in the signal that our equipment retrieves, amplifies and reproduces. So no matter how accurately your equipment reproduces the signal 'it won't do emotion', you have to do that yourself.
Andre Visser said:
Replace the word 'difficult' with 'impossible' and you and I are in agreement 100%.
KBK's speculations are unfortunately not in accord with well-established physics; that's OK, it's not a matter of whether it follows theory, it matters whether the consequences of the hypothesis are borne out by experiment.
Ah, well.
Ah, well.
I'm almost sure that almost hurt, and I will have a glass of beer in your name this evening, Stu. Shall I name a child after you? I get to do the dirty work, though. Someone else can raise them.
One has to remember that the only places that all the points that audiophiles raise as a point, ie 'sonic signature' of a given amp or device, will only show themselves in the transient domain. However, I'm talking about a very specific type of transient measurement and that is one of quite high stress on the system. Push the levels up high enough until the stress on the system(DUT) shows a repeating pattern of distortions. Those distortions will correlate to what we hear as audiophiles.
Couple that with the fact that the ear hears via transient aggregates as harmonic groupings in (or with) correctly placed time signatures...and..and..well..it's kinda self explanatory after that.
One has to remember that the only places that all the points that audiophiles raise as a point, ie 'sonic signature' of a given amp or device, will only show themselves in the transient domain. However, I'm talking about a very specific type of transient measurement and that is one of quite high stress on the system. Push the levels up high enough until the stress on the system(DUT) shows a repeating pattern of distortions. Those distortions will correlate to what we hear as audiophiles.
Couple that with the fact that the ear hears via transient aggregates as harmonic groupings in (or with) correctly placed time signatures...and..and..well..it's kinda self explanatory after that.
stinius said:
And now I will tell you the secret to negotiating the CES.
Never go out the front.
Go out the back ---and take the mono-rail to the next casino --and go out the front of that one.
10x faster.
KBK said:
My secret is not to. Las Vegas is the last place on earth I would ever want to be (almost).
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