afair, these relays were promoted for flourescent tube switching.janneman said:
But so called speaker relays didn't use that technique.
Does it have drawbacks other than price? 😕
regards
Hi Edmond,
no, but there were non-goldplated relays for industrial purposes of this kind.
I don't think Amplino has invented the advanced tungsten contact thing.
One maybe has to break one and compare it to one I have lying around.
Regards
no, but there were non-goldplated relays for industrial purposes of this kind.
I don't think Amplino has invented the advanced tungsten contact thing.
One maybe has to break one and compare it to one I have lying around.
Regards
they have goldplated contacts in their relays, so I think the relays were special made for them.
But what about drawbacks with prerun contacts? 😕
Regards
But what about drawbacks with prerun contacts? 😕
Regards
I think that it is important to get into the 'real world' on relays.
When it comes to power relays, gold is out for the main contact, because it quickly evaporates with high current switching. Silver is pretty good, BUT it sulfides easily and creates a barrier at some point. Silver Oxide is unique, perhaps more exotic than you realize, but it is stable and if often used for high current relays. Actually, most amp output relays, like Parasound uses, are automotive high current relays, because performance/cost they are very effective. However, they are not PERFECT and if I could get away from using them, I would.
When it comes to power relays, gold is out for the main contact, because it quickly evaporates with high current switching. Silver is pretty good, BUT it sulfides easily and creates a barrier at some point. Silver Oxide is unique, perhaps more exotic than you realize, but it is stable and if often used for high current relays. Actually, most amp output relays, like Parasound uses, are automotive high current relays, because performance/cost they are very effective. However, they are not PERFECT and if I could get away from using them, I would.
john curl said:
Did you experience a mesureable increase in distortion with use or did you experience an audible degradation? In the later case, was it right at the beginning or in time or both.
I must say that I have seen a lot of classical contact protection with RC network and this is wrong so degradation is normal.
Thanks for the info
JPV
jneutron said:
Sorry to be late to read everything these days...
but JN has touched upon my own personal pet hypothesis regarding the difference between a "really good system" and one that is not so good - it takes the brain less time to sort out the confusion in the "stimulus" (sound) What does this mean in practical terms? Well, since listening is sort of a FIFO pipe, with processing in real time, and a practical limit on the processing WRT to time, that works out to simply that the less processing has to be done to recover the 1st, 2nd, 3rd order information the more processing time/power can be applied to recovering the Nth order information.
This explains in concept why a table radio or car radio sounds ok, and many consumers are more than happy with a Bose table radio thingie - but "critical listeners" constantly wrestle with the types of subtleties that we are engaged in discussing the technical design details of...
😀
_-_-bear
Sure John... 
except for one thing... other than the fact that I did the same sort of tests mentioned by someone a few pages back, and I can't seem to find the post now, sorry... those being identical topology/geometry/everything except for the actual wire, and maybe the date of manufacture and was confounded to hear "differences" that were reasonably clear and confirmed by others who knew next to nothing about what was going on at all...
beyond that, I don't know a blessed thing about why or how or what causes it.
I can say for certain that in an abstract sense there is a threshold of "qualities" that a given system (room + electronics) must exceed before the difference between identical cables of copper, SPC and silver will become apparent. It's abstract because I don't know of any way to quantify it. The idea raised about interchannel delay/phase shift earlier is intriguing since it may offer a clue about a way to find another parameter that might give a clue about audible differences, especially those that are dynamic and not steady state?
One of the biggest problems that I've found is roughly correlated to the "Princess and The Pea" fable - very little things seem to have effect(s) magnified (in effect) in terms of perception more and more as the signal chain becomes better and better.
Honestly, when I first began to experience this sort of thing it both worried me and made me rather upset - after all it should not have had any effect, much less an audible one! - but it did.
Let's see, I'd say that 20 years ago the idea that a Polypropylene cap was clearly better sounding in a crossover than a Mylar (polyester) cap was not an accepted idea at all. Same thing about many of the issues that almost everyone here now would not debate at all. Ok, so it is pretty easy to measure that difference - but to say that it is audible?
My late friend, Phil Fisher, who once worked for GE on their Sealex machines had a pet theory that wire was like a stream bed. If it is smooth, then there is no turbulence and white water on the top. If it is rocky and jagged on the bottom (in this case the bottom = the skin or maybe at the atomic level) then there is excessive turbulence and whitewater. Seems as good an explanation as any.
Anyhow, I have no clue why the Silver wire I have made for me is good or not good. None whatsoever. Nil. Zilch. Nada. It would be far easier if there was no difference, as far as I am concerned - AND things would be less expensive too!
<dives for cover>
_-_-bear
except for one thing... other than the fact that I did the same sort of tests mentioned by someone a few pages back, and I can't seem to find the post now, sorry... those being identical topology/geometry/everything except for the actual wire, and maybe the date of manufacture and was confounded to hear "differences" that were reasonably clear and confirmed by others who knew next to nothing about what was going on at all...beyond that, I don't know a blessed thing about why or how or what causes it.
I can say for certain that in an abstract sense there is a threshold of "qualities" that a given system (room + electronics) must exceed before the difference between identical cables of copper, SPC and silver will become apparent. It's abstract because I don't know of any way to quantify it. The idea raised about interchannel delay/phase shift earlier is intriguing since it may offer a clue about a way to find another parameter that might give a clue about audible differences, especially those that are dynamic and not steady state?
One of the biggest problems that I've found is roughly correlated to the "Princess and The Pea" fable - very little things seem to have effect(s) magnified (in effect) in terms of perception more and more as the signal chain becomes better and better.
Honestly, when I first began to experience this sort of thing it both worried me and made me rather upset - after all it should not have had any effect, much less an audible one! - but it did.
Let's see, I'd say that 20 years ago the idea that a Polypropylene cap was clearly better sounding in a crossover than a Mylar (polyester) cap was not an accepted idea at all. Same thing about many of the issues that almost everyone here now would not debate at all. Ok, so it is pretty easy to measure that difference - but to say that it is audible?
My late friend, Phil Fisher, who once worked for GE on their Sealex machines had a pet theory that wire was like a stream bed. If it is smooth, then there is no turbulence and white water on the top. If it is rocky and jagged on the bottom (in this case the bottom = the skin or maybe at the atomic level) then there is excessive turbulence and whitewater. Seems as good an explanation as any.
Anyhow, I have no clue why the Silver wire I have made for me is good or not good. None whatsoever. Nil. Zilch. Nada. It would be far easier if there was no difference, as far as I am concerned - AND things would be less expensive too!
<dives for cover>
_-_-bear
Yes, it was me that tested the cables.
The only conclusion that I can make, based on listening tests, is that cable can have either or both, an effect like jitter or amplitude variation on low level signals at least. I also don't think RFI alone can be blamed because it should have the same effect on 'identical except for conductor purity' cable.
André
The only conclusion that I can make, based on listening tests, is that cable can have either or both, an effect like jitter or amplitude variation on low level signals at least. I also don't think RFI alone can be blamed because it should have the same effect on 'identical except for conductor purity' cable.
André
Hi bear,
I agree with you on what you said in #10368, 10370. It is very close to my own understanding (and a lack of) and experience in these matters.
Cheers
Alex
I agree with you on what you said in #10368, 10370. It is very close to my own understanding (and a lack of) and experience in these matters.
Cheers
Alex
john curl said:
Do you have any answer to my questions a few posts above?
I would be glad.
Thanks
JPV
Mr. Curl,
After reading Nelson Pass article here, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132491&pagenumber=1
I realize that I overlooked what a damage IMD can make. I usually only test with 2 tones, shows little information.
In that article, when there is 7 tones, the distortion residual peak can exceed the original peak.
In AudioExpress January 2001, Anthony New already mentioned the importance of IMD, but NP's article is really eye-opening.
What is your opinion about this?
And why don't more people explore Dean Jensen's spectral contamination test? We use the same sort of thing to test our telecom circuits. It gets down to fundamental channel capacity issues.
I think the answer is that they don't know how to interpret the results.
I think the answer is that they don't know how to interpret the results.
I might be wrong here, but maybe we really cannot hear anything <-80dB. In single tone spectrum or 2tone IMD test, all residuals are <-80dB. This shows little information.
If we play music (many tone fundamental), if we can hear something good or bad, the bad-sound-making residuals should be >-80dB (because we can hear it) and could be IMD originated (because it only appear with many tone fundamental).
We shouldn't worry about <-100dB residuals of single tone spectrum, but should worry about residuals from many tones IMD.
NP's article also shows where non global feedback amp excell.
If we play music (many tone fundamental), if we can hear something good or bad, the bad-sound-making residuals should be >-80dB (because we can hear it) and could be IMD originated (because it only appear with many tone fundamental).
We shouldn't worry about <-100dB residuals of single tone spectrum, but should worry about residuals from many tones IMD.
NP's article also shows where non global feedback amp excell.
I have been using the spectral contamination tests for transducers for some time. Its very sensitive but not easy to connect problem to cause. For electronics I'm not sure how sensitive it can be. I use a good soundcard and software and have a low noise floor, but 16/24 bits aren't enough, really. And it seems unlikely that a dac + adc will be able to see meaningful problems, or that the problems don't matter since the most used medium for recording sets the limit of the performance.
I have possibly 6-7 analog oscillators with less than .001% THD but what do I analyze this with?
Perhaps a pink noise generator with a bank of really deep notch filters and a good swept analyzer could accomplish the same goal?
I have possibly 6-7 analog oscillators with less than .001% THD but what do I analyze this with?
Perhaps a pink noise generator with a bank of really deep notch filters and a good swept analyzer could accomplish the same goal?
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