This is not how we normally use switches in consumer audio equipment. I read 'EDN' and 'Electronics Design' as well as virtually all the other mags. Do you?
Why would we want to use solid state switches for a SOTA preamp. Why not use relays, instead?
Everyone else, please 'Google' analog switch distortion. Look and see for yourself.
Why would we want to use solid state switches for a SOTA preamp. Why not use relays, instead?
Everyone else, please 'Google' analog switch distortion. Look and see for yourself.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lyra
I am not sure you will be content with a study as one can alwas critize a study. To get the proof that you seem to look for, I guess several studies would maybe do the job, I have not seen any studies, but why not
make your own test? and make it as scientific as you can.
I am not saying that you will or can (or want) to hear the difference between any pots whatever the price is.
I also think that there is not much use to have a 800 USD pot in a
2000 USD hifi system. But this is the BT thread and we are not talking about 2000 USD hifi systems but the top of the class systems with a 15k (or 45k in Japan) USD preamp.
You say decent and reasonable priced Alps but who decides what decent and reasonable priced is? You do!
When I wrote "best suited for the job" we talked about resistors,
and especially resistors in a stepped attenuator. What I mean is that one can find the part (in general) that is best suited for the job is is to do. A resistor that is in a given position in a schematic has certain purposes to fulfill. For ex:
* it is in the signal path of a 20k USD preamp so it has to sound as good as possible and cost is irrelevant
* it is in a 100 USD preamp so sonics is not relevant but cost is
* it has to handle 10W so the best sounding small resistors will not work so other types are needed for this job
* it has to handle 20000V - another range of resistors are here possible for the job
Of course there are manufacturing issues aswell as strategical and marketing issues etc, but here I have focused on other issues.
Sigurd
I am not sure you will be content with a study as one can alwas critize a study. To get the proof that you seem to look for, I guess several studies would maybe do the job, I have not seen any studies, but why not
make your own test? and make it as scientific as you can.
I am not saying that you will or can (or want) to hear the difference between any pots whatever the price is.
I also think that there is not much use to have a 800 USD pot in a
2000 USD hifi system. But this is the BT thread and we are not talking about 2000 USD hifi systems but the top of the class systems with a 15k (or 45k in Japan) USD preamp.
You say decent and reasonable priced Alps but who decides what decent and reasonable priced is? You do!
When I wrote "best suited for the job" we talked about resistors,
and especially resistors in a stepped attenuator. What I mean is that one can find the part (in general) that is best suited for the job is is to do. A resistor that is in a given position in a schematic has certain purposes to fulfill. For ex:
* it is in the signal path of a 20k USD preamp so it has to sound as good as possible and cost is irrelevant
* it is in a 100 USD preamp so sonics is not relevant but cost is
* it has to handle 10W so the best sounding small resistors will not work so other types are needed for this job
* it has to handle 20000V - another range of resistors are here possible for the job
Of course there are manufacturing issues aswell as strategical and marketing issues etc, but here I have focused on other issues.
Sigurd
syn08 said:
john curl said:
John, stop dodging. The question is not 'why not'. You said that SS switches are not up to it. That may have been true in the 60's, but no longer now.
Jan Didden
Daniel -
that is one heck of a cool "pot"!
I see that you have mixed MK132s and TX2352s.
Would you say that mixing resistors is like 1 + 1 = 3?
Sigurd
that is one heck of a cool "pot"!
I see that you have mixed MK132s and TX2352s.
Would you say that mixing resistors is like 1 + 1 = 3?
Sigurd
Peter Daniel said:
Re: Pass Labs
Better? Of course, all the annoying clicking noises are gone. Not to mention they're even cheaper than relays.
As much as i like Pass preamps, they are hardly pushing the boundaries of transparency.
reinhard said:
Better? Of course, all the annoying clicking noises are gone. Not to mention they're even cheaper than relays.
As much as i like Pass preamps, they are hardly pushing the boundaries of transparency.
Peter Daniel said:
This is also what I would do.
As I am a normal Diy Audio guy, when comes to money spent .
(= what I can afford without stop eating 😀 and paying my rent 😀 )
If I wouldn't settle for a good conductive plastic Bourns log potentiometer,
then I would go for shunting 1% metal resistors resistors
using goldplated rotary switch ( for example ELMA ).
If the environment where either the pot or the rotary switch is designed in a good audio way
then there would not be any measurable effects from such a solution.
This means matching source and load impedances, seen from the potentiometer.
====================================
Links:
Bourns - Pro Audio potentiometers
http://www.bourns.com/
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
ELMA - goldplated rotary switches
http://www.elma.com/Americas/English/Products/RotarySwitches_4/SelectorSwitches_30.aspx
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Earlier there was mention of ways to clean contacts. I don't use trick fluids anymore since I found out about fibre glass erasers.
They are used by draughtspersons drawing on mylar sheet.
Mine is a "A.W. Faber-Castell 30103". It is a tight bunch of replaceable fibres that project out of the body, you turn the end to extend them as they wear away with use. They easily remove any oxidation leaving bright metal with no scratches. Great for edge connectors, access to switch contacts can be difficult.
Don't breath in the dust.
They are used by draughtspersons drawing on mylar sheet.
Mine is a "A.W. Faber-Castell 30103". It is a tight bunch of replaceable fibres that project out of the body, you turn the end to extend them as they wear away with use. They easily remove any oxidation leaving bright metal with no scratches. Great for edge connectors, access to switch contacts can be difficult.
Don't breath in the dust.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lyra
Sigurd, your reply reached the absolute Zen of the Subjective Audio. The other best I've heard is "things that measure well can't sound good" to which I am positively sure you agree as well.
Good luck and keep those costs under control 😀
Edit: this is a discussion on pots (including TKD) that I find hysterically amusing; I in particularly enjoyed post #9 😀
http://wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=930
Sigurd Ruschkow said:
Sigurd, your reply reached the absolute Zen of the Subjective Audio. The other best I've heard is "things that measure well can't sound good" to which I am positively sure you agree as well.
Good luck and keep those costs under control 😀
Edit: this is a discussion on pots (including TKD) that I find hysterically amusing; I in particularly enjoyed post #9 😀
http://wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=930
Sigurd Ruschkow said:
In that particular case, two different resistor types produced better results for me.
For some reason, I was never happy with Vishays as input shunt or feedback position in my amps, MK132 were much better here. However, Vishays are somewhat better as series resistors.
What's interesting, Caddocks TF020 which are generally regarded as superior to MK132, sounded here worse. OTOH, TF020 are my first choice for I/V resistors in a DAC, but only when combined with proper couplig caps. So everything depends on circuit location and associated parts.
Bourns is a good, low cost, alternative. I like Bourns sound quality, but we had tracking problems with early pots. Audible Illusions used a modified Bourns pot for many years in their tube preamp.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lyra
Syn08 -
I am sorry to disappoint you but I do not agree with "things that measure well can't sound good". Of course they can sound good, but I am seaeching deeper than this, ie how can two different amps that measures identically or very similar sound so different.
Most preamps measures very well, IMO, but why do they sound different?
Do not worry too much about cost - this is the BT thread where we discuss preamps costing 10+k USD.
Sigurd
Syn08 -
I am sorry to disappoint you but I do not agree with "things that measure well can't sound good". Of course they can sound good, but I am seaeching deeper than this, ie how can two different amps that measures identically or very similar sound so different.
Most preamps measures very well, IMO, but why do they sound different?
Do not worry too much about cost - this is the BT thread where we discuss preamps costing 10+k USD.
Sigurd
syn08 said:
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lyra
So, you always measure your stuff and then search deeper than this. You are comparing measurement results with subjective tests and try to understand why preamps sound different.
This is impressive stuff. Could you share some of your experience regarding this approach? A case study would do great.
Just curious, how have you reached the conclusion that the TKD pots are the best? There must be something that persuaded you to invest that kind of money. Was it the specification, some subjective listening results, some measurements? Word of mouth recommendation, price, reputation?
The BT (or whatever other brand) costing 15k tells me absolutely nothing. As Jan already mentioned, there is no obvious relationship between the cost and the performance. To me, it is 15k because it uses expensive TKD pots(?), an amazingly expensive case, etc... The next step, from these expensive parts to the BT ultimate quality is not clear to me. How a BT with Alps pots would measure and sound, we don't know and it is unlikely we'll ever do.
Sigurd Ruschkow said:
So, you always measure your stuff and then search deeper than this. You are comparing measurement results with subjective tests and try to understand why preamps sound different.
This is impressive stuff. Could you share some of your experience regarding this approach? A case study would do great.
Just curious, how have you reached the conclusion that the TKD pots are the best? There must be something that persuaded you to invest that kind of money. Was it the specification, some subjective listening results, some measurements? Word of mouth recommendation, price, reputation?
The BT (or whatever other brand) costing 15k tells me absolutely nothing. As Jan already mentioned, there is no obvious relationship between the cost and the performance. To me, it is 15k because it uses expensive TKD pots(?), an amazingly expensive case, etc... The next step, from these expensive parts to the BT ultimate quality is not clear to me. How a BT with Alps pots would measure and sound, we don't know and it is unlikely we'll ever do.
We use Alps pots in the Parasound JC-2. Why don't you listen to one of those. We know the difference between the JC-2 and the Blowtorch, because we have compared them. Even my business partner and another mutual friend who have both, have told me about the difference which is darn subtle, but then if I were an audiophile with normal means, I would go the the JC-2, or another preamp in the same price range. Why go all the way, unless you really can afford it, and your system might be able to resolve it?
I, for example, drive a Porsche 944, and I love it. Would I have a Boxter, if I could justify it? You bet! But the 944 gives me almost anything that I really need, and it sure beats the Acura that I also have, in drivability.
I, for example, drive a Porsche 944, and I love it. Would I have a Boxter, if I could justify it? You bet! But the 944 gives me almost anything that I really need, and it sure beats the Acura that I also have, in drivability.
john curl said:Logical, KBK? Putting resistors in parallel to the pot?
I had a full explanation typed up and was about to hit 'reply', but that just opens up more wormy cans, so I let it go. 😉
salas said:
After all is said and done, in the end, it is still far more effective, in the commercial build sense and in the 'effective work and money returned (for a given work unit or amount of effort)' for that work..to use an established distribution channel...compared to that of self distribution. The 'distribution/retail channel' model will easily double the end price to consumers, but it is easily the best and most effective way for a company to stay alive and be able to effectively deliver product to customers.
Peter Daniel said:
I was thinking liquid coupling of physically polarized copper shims. Nah. More problem than solution. Oh well. I'll think of something.... I was also considering magneto-restrictive means..but that entails the corruption of transients, which is most definitely part of what you do not want to damage in it's ratio to that of lower delta or low frequencies. I dunno. Yet.
The best is still the 'Emperor Remote' system. You know, the one where he raises his finger, the choirmaster looks over and the Emperor says, 'tell them to sing louder'.
john curl said:
It happens that I had a chance to listen to a JC-2 and indeed, to me, it's perfect.
Now, beyond Alps vs. TKD, I guess there are many other differences between the BT and the JC-2. How would one account for the TKD pot contribution?
Bratislav said:
Via the idea of logic tied to the essence of human function, the idea of having discussions that are 'subjective free' destroys the idea of a discussion that works with the whole of the human function.
Being that 'subjective', as a observed point within the scope of essential and existent human function comprises a minimum of 50% of said whole human function, logic dictates that any discussion that is free of it is stilted, weighted, off kilter... and far of complete. Ie, logic dictates an error function.
The truth is that organized and vocalized human thought itself arises in the darkness of the mind, which is run wholly by the subconscious, which is emotionally and 'base' driven. Essentially and realistically...There is no escaping the colouration of even the most basic attempts at logical thought itself..from being coloured by emotion. The trick lies in the calming of the mind, which is a long and ardorous path. (ie, a catch 22 that must be addressed) 🙂
Two years ago I started working on an attenuator idea that at the time seemed to me quite tempting and I though it could be the best solution out there. It was inspired by Placette, but with more friendly user interface and improved low level control range.
It worked fine, however today, I don't feel like it was "ultimate"😉
Link to pics: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1118699#post1118699 schematic atached.
It worked fine, however today, I don't feel like it was "ultimate"😉
Link to pics: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1118699#post1118699 schematic atached.
KBK said:
Then this would end up $30k retail, and you are right it may be still viable if it can put up to a -line only- Wavac PR-T1 for example. And it may very well can. The key point is to be available for a listen to them rich hobbyists I guess, and that means distribution.
As for logic and subjectivity, I have posted in many related threads. My main stance is that it isn't humanly logical not to be subjective, but it is not logical to claim based on subjective grounds. Only to report.
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