My experience is different.
This is your view. The facts may differ.
When there is a loud hum in my sound system, I hear it clearly, it isn't imagined. (It happened with faulty interconnect).
The same goes for audible differences of different power cords. I hear clearly and definitely those differences. Not all differences are for the better and more expansive power cords don't sound better necessarily.
I cannot prove it to others, nor do I have any interest in attempting to prove it to others, other than letting them hear with their own ears what I'm talking about.
I choose power cords (and other pieces of gear) to my sound system in order to enjoy better the music reproduced by it, not in order to make a point to anyone else.
All are free to disbelieve the effect that any piece of gear may have on the sound of a sound system. My enjoyment of listening to music via my sound system isn't diminished by others' disbeliefs.
The point is that those who deny that I hear what I hear do so on the basis of their belief system, yet, they raise the banner of science in order to "prove" their beliefs.
So be it. I'm not going to argue about it with anyone.
All who are convinced that I don't actually hear what I hear are welcomed to stick to their conviction. I'd rather enjoy listening to music than argue about it.
For those who don't hear differences between different power cords on their sound system, they are welcomed to use the cheapest power cords available. There is no point paying even a penny when there is no audible benefit.
And yet, here you are, arguing about it.
If you can actually hear a difference when you switch power cords, you have a serious problem in your system. If you want truly higher performance, you need to track that down and fix it. If you're satisfied with defective gear or setup, that's certainly your right.
And yet, here you are, arguing about it.
If you can actually hear a difference when you switch power cords, you have a serious problem in your system. If you want truly higher performance, you need to track that down and fix it. If you're satisfied with defective gear or setup, that's certainly your right.
This is your opinion.
Scott,
I am applying a 1 nanovolt AC signal and finding greater noise on a MECHANICAL contact than from a signal level of 100 nanovolts.
If you have a thermocouple that is mechanically assembled and has an output of 1 nanovolt you should see the same noise. Also note the noise is still below the signal level. So even with the thermocouple example you would still get an accurate reading unless you were looking for better than 1% precision at a frequency above 1000 hz.
The noise was not present on a soldered connection.
So at 5 megohm input impedance and 1 nanovolt what is the current and how many electrons are we talking about? (Easy question)
The noise floor shown tilts due to the bandwidth of the preamp as mentione earlier.
I'm talking about the "barrier" to overcome. You have shown pictures where there is no signal passed from anywhere between 10's or 100's of micro-volts. This would represent a "fat" zero in any instrumentation system. A load cell would not register until there was a slight load. A thermocouple would read 0 for the first few +-degrees.
Maybe if you had a better line cord, you wouldn't be missing that dead band!
The scope picture was with a gain of 120 db. I have since turned it down to 100 db. My attenuator is 1,000,000/1 So my maximum test voltage from the AP would be 15 uv and I haven't run it that high. So my worst dead zone is a few nv at most.
At what temperature does a thermocouple have less than 1 nv of output? For a type K thermocouple the +/- 1 NV would give you a dead zone from 31.99999 to 32.00001 F. Not a very "fat" zero.
Have you ever tried to use a strain gauge? Typical 120 ohms or maybe 60 in a bridge half, what is the noise at room temperature? Not the noise bandwidth you are reducing your circuit down to, but the actual total noise out of the sensor going into your equipment. (60 ohms at 25C with a 1 Hz bandwidth is 1 nv!)
Come on Scott, you recognize a dirty contact at high levels don't you think less dirt should show up at low levels?
ES
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Joshua, I also have a problem, and it is with my STAX Lambda Sig. Headphone system. I can hear different power cords when plugging them into the tube drive amp. In fact, it is my reference to hear these problems. I do not know precisely WHY STAX made such a 'sensitive' power supply, perhaps they were 'inferior' engineers who left something out that would be obvious to the rest of us, but I sort of doubt it.
I first found that a very fancy power cord sounded 'tizzy' with it, then I tried a typical Belden 14 ga power cord which was better, and finally I settled for something like a Belden 18ga power cord, (skinny, but effective) as the best sounding.
I also tried additions to the power cord, including add on iron clamps, made for creating an RFI choke with the line cord, but the only thing that really worked without compromising anything else, was a Bybee quantum filter set. It gave the most neutral and revealing presentation to the STAX headphone system.
I now have in reserve, since my erstwhile business partner's unfortunate demise, a sample of his all silver line cord, and someday I will compare it to all others with the STAX headphone setup.
I first found that a very fancy power cord sounded 'tizzy' with it, then I tried a typical Belden 14 ga power cord which was better, and finally I settled for something like a Belden 18ga power cord, (skinny, but effective) as the best sounding.
I also tried additions to the power cord, including add on iron clamps, made for creating an RFI choke with the line cord, but the only thing that really worked without compromising anything else, was a Bybee quantum filter set. It gave the most neutral and revealing presentation to the STAX headphone system.
I now have in reserve, since my erstwhile business partner's unfortunate demise, a sample of his all silver line cord, and someday I will compare it to all others with the STAX headphone setup.
Probably a good time to once again remind people to confine their attacks to ideas and not each other.. Thanks...
Isn't that interesting? Suppose you have a car that drives differently depending on the brand of gas you put into it. Most people would sue the gas company, the car manufacturer or both for incompetent design..
Yet, the audibility of different mains cables is somehow considered a positive quality of the equipment, notwithstanding the fact that people like Ed Simon succeed in uncovering the defects in cables, connectors and screening that could cause these audible effects.
Yet people seem to relish these defects and enjoy their effects!
Ahhh! If Mr. Freud would only be still around!
jan didden
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Interesting, except my car also runs on E85 (really 70% ethanol/30% gas). A slight increase in HP and the mileage drops in 1/2!
Yes. And, are you enjoying it, do you think it is worth it to be green to use twice as much?
jan didden
I've been trying different brands of stainless steel forks to see which one makes my pasta taste best.
Hi,
Not sure it really is that good analogy, TBH. Maybe it would more accurate like this:
"Isn't that interesting? Suppose you have a car that drives differently depending on the brand of tires you put onto it."
OOOPS. Actually, cars drive different with different tires.
Also, I remember when fuels where not all exactly the same and varied a little from brand to brand in terms of Octane and other composition differences I have not had a car in over a decade). And yes, cars where driving a little different, different acceleration and MPG and so on...
I do not remember anyone doing such. Things where said to be different, observed as different and no-one felt the need to sue.
I do not think anyone considers these defects a good thing.
But there are some that will notice these issues and get on with things, there are those who will try to turn in a profit as a result and some who will simply try to talk things away.
If we agree that there are defects and problems and we have potentially audible differences as a result, then lets just get on with things, shall we?
There is no need to endlessly bang on about how equipment that shows such differences must be defective, because simply 90% or more would fall under this heading, simply measure the ground fault current on any fun loving piece of mains powered gear cheap or expensive...
It may be more worthwhile to work on simple ways that allow the problems reduced without appreciably increasing cost and to make clear what parameters are desirable in cables to minimise problems.
This way we would combine the practice without theory, which is blind and the theory without practice that is sterile and create a new situation in which the synthesis of the two creates a new knowledge.
Of course, that would be something to overthrow the whole religion on both sides and there are way too many guru's, pundits and high priests invested deeply into their respective beliefs, so I do not expect this to happen, it would be too reasonable.
Ciao T
Not sure it really is that good analogy, TBH. Maybe it would more accurate like this:
"Isn't that interesting? Suppose you have a car that drives differently depending on the brand of tires you put onto it."
OOOPS. Actually, cars drive different with different tires.
Also, I remember when fuels where not all exactly the same and varied a little from brand to brand in terms of Octane and other composition differences I have not had a car in over a decade). And yes, cars where driving a little different, different acceleration and MPG and so on...
I do not remember anyone doing such. Things where said to be different, observed as different and no-one felt the need to sue.
I do not think anyone considers these defects a good thing.
But there are some that will notice these issues and get on with things, there are those who will try to turn in a profit as a result and some who will simply try to talk things away.
If we agree that there are defects and problems and we have potentially audible differences as a result, then lets just get on with things, shall we?
There is no need to endlessly bang on about how equipment that shows such differences must be defective, because simply 90% or more would fall under this heading, simply measure the ground fault current on any fun loving piece of mains powered gear cheap or expensive...
It may be more worthwhile to work on simple ways that allow the problems reduced without appreciably increasing cost and to make clear what parameters are desirable in cables to minimise problems.
This way we would combine the practice without theory, which is blind and the theory without practice that is sterile and create a new situation in which the synthesis of the two creates a new knowledge.
Of course, that would be something to overthrow the whole religion on both sides and there are way too many guru's, pundits and high priests invested deeply into their respective beliefs, so I do not expect this to happen, it would be too reasonable.
Ciao T
And I'll bet you never went and checked Paschen's law. Nv gaps caused by any physically realizable dirt don't fit 120yrs. of reproducable results (and this stuff is important to lots of people making nano scale stuff).
BTW I've stared at .1-10Hz noise amplified to volts on scopes for more hours than I care to remember, no flat spots.
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The point is Ed, that we were sweeping at a defined number of degrees per minute, from a possible -150C to a possible + 750C, If a sweep was done from -50C to +50C then the only reason for a step at 0C was down to moisture in the furnace. If it was dried out properly then passing through zero gave a smooth curve, averaging showed no steps at 0. The system was usually at lab temeratures so the cold junction compensation would be added in separately. The true passing through zero volts could be anywhere between -2to-3C or so up to about 20C or so, no untoward discontinuities were found in many hours of lab testing the product.
Wrinkle
PS thorsten, please do not put words in my mouth, the current discussion was about low level connector effects.
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