1979? BTW I have never sold anything but my used equipment and most of that was given away. I made $ on a patented cap design for awhile is all. I made $10K selling my registered domain name (capacitors.com) in the early days of the Dot.Com bubble. I went away from LP back then also and started doing my own Reel to Reel recordings (even a small remote recording business set up to do it... tax loss write off). 15-30 ips Masters played back is great then and now. Then CD and the digital age came along with potential.... more recently being realised to good affect with the help of low cost powerful DSP.
John is making a living - somewhat - on Lp systems - but also power amps and other analog areas. But as a consumer, and early adopter type, it is pretty much a dead end (LP systems) for the best possible HiEnd system today. IMO. So he isnt wasting His time. But it is a waste of my time. I like the info about devices and physics of devices and improvements in modelling them and topologies etc. So, that isnt a total waste of my time. I have managed to find the time to learn and use the MicroCap CAD since thier beginning. I am only one upgrade away... will fix that soon. When you have many diverse things to do, I need bottom line info and sources of info to speed up learning. Not snips around the edges. That is what I look for and there are people here doing serious study and tests and taking a lot of their life time and energy that I want to read. As well as AES pubs etc. I have been out of the home audio game for a long time.... LLNL career and all. I am trying to catch up on SOTA audio. But LP isnt state of the art any more.
THx-RNMarsh
Last edited:
I don't know, I was wondering if a different tip quality would be needed more than the cartridge itself.
But it's fair to say that advancements in reducing distortion from the nature of the album could be real. As is the needle moves between nulls where distortion goes up and down. This technology could potentially eliminate that, or at least reduce it very significantly. But it makes you wonder about linear vs. regular arm choices. Maybe regular arms will have less distortion with them, and linear arms will gain it?
I CAN'T complain about reducing the cost, time, and environmental impact, not in the least.
But it's fair to say that advancements in reducing distortion from the nature of the album could be real. As is the needle moves between nulls where distortion goes up and down. This technology could potentially eliminate that, or at least reduce it very significantly. But it makes you wonder about linear vs. regular arm choices. Maybe regular arms will have less distortion with them, and linear arms will gain it?
I CAN'T complain about reducing the cost, time, and environmental impact, not in the least.
Last edited:
Richard, give me a break. You have been away from vinyl reproduction for so long, how can you make a judgement on it?
I don't disagree that there is a lot more to audio reproduction than vinyl playback, but I also know that a better designed vinyl playback system can really sound better than what most digital playback will give me. Now, if I were completely independent, without even an audio history, I might invest in digital playback first, before trying to build a successful analog vinyl playback system, but I have acquired my playback electronics from my own design effort, and have gotten reasonable deals on the non-electronics like the turntable and the MC phono cartridge. I also know that every time that I play vinyl, I get more interested in listening to music, but perhaps that is just me.
Now, I am not trying to get by with a second rate turntable, or a cheap Grado or Ortofon MM cartridge. I KNOW that you lose too much with these compromises. However, I think that Scott is trying to do this, so his criticisms have little merit in my opinion.
Now, what do we have and know in common Richard? Well, you are building a very nice power amp (at least you are giving it your best shot), and I am working to improve my JC-1 (400W/8 ohm) power amp at the moment. This is where we should meet minds and make objective and subjective comparisons, not in comparing vinyl and digital playback.
For the record, 0.1% 3rd harmonic is quite possible in vinyl playback at normal playback levels. Yes, the peaks will have significantly more distortion, and the fact that 2'nd harmonic never seems to go away in vinyl is a limitation, but it still can sound pretty good. A good example just sent to me is 'The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem' recorded live in NY in 1984. I am reasonably sure that it is all analog, because it sounds so good, not just in my system, but at the Newport Audio Show last June, where I first heard it. Not all vinyl will sound this good, but there are lots of other examples, AND at least with MY system, vinyl playback sounds better than my OPPO 105, from CD, 24-96K, or SACD that I have available. Why, that is the question? Until we can answer this question, we will have a ways to go as audio designers.
I don't disagree that there is a lot more to audio reproduction than vinyl playback, but I also know that a better designed vinyl playback system can really sound better than what most digital playback will give me. Now, if I were completely independent, without even an audio history, I might invest in digital playback first, before trying to build a successful analog vinyl playback system, but I have acquired my playback electronics from my own design effort, and have gotten reasonable deals on the non-electronics like the turntable and the MC phono cartridge. I also know that every time that I play vinyl, I get more interested in listening to music, but perhaps that is just me.
Now, I am not trying to get by with a second rate turntable, or a cheap Grado or Ortofon MM cartridge. I KNOW that you lose too much with these compromises. However, I think that Scott is trying to do this, so his criticisms have little merit in my opinion.
Now, what do we have and know in common Richard? Well, you are building a very nice power amp (at least you are giving it your best shot), and I am working to improve my JC-1 (400W/8 ohm) power amp at the moment. This is where we should meet minds and make objective and subjective comparisons, not in comparing vinyl and digital playback.
For the record, 0.1% 3rd harmonic is quite possible in vinyl playback at normal playback levels. Yes, the peaks will have significantly more distortion, and the fact that 2'nd harmonic never seems to go away in vinyl is a limitation, but it still can sound pretty good. A good example just sent to me is 'The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem' recorded live in NY in 1984. I am reasonably sure that it is all analog, because it sounds so good, not just in my system, but at the Newport Audio Show last June, where I first heard it. Not all vinyl will sound this good, but there are lots of other examples, AND at least with MY system, vinyl playback sounds better than my OPPO 105, from CD, 24-96K, or SACD that I have available. Why, that is the question? Until we can answer this question, we will have a ways to go as audio designers.
Ya but the Oppo 105 analog out sounds awful... no one would choose it over vinyl.
Try a "Water Lily" LP, John. They're OCD analog & tube based in recordings. I really like Padma-Vibhushan Ali Akbar Khan / Maihar. I can recommend numerous good sounding albums. It's important to note not every MoFi and "audiophile" release actually sounds good...
Try a "Water Lily" LP, John. They're OCD analog & tube based in recordings. I really like Padma-Vibhushan Ali Akbar Khan / Maihar. I can recommend numerous good sounding albums. It's important to note not every MoFi and "audiophile" release actually sounds good...
It all starts at the source.....the noise including quantum noise embedded in the signal triggers downstream excess noise.
The better/quieter the downstream electronics, the better/quieter the in room sound.
Digital reconstruction provides audio signal accompanied by hash/junk.
This junk triggers system excess noise that vinyl advocates object to.
Quantum noise can be controlled as is revealed in my experiments cleaning digital files.
Dan.
Ok. John. We've been friends a long long time. What i do is go to CES and High End shows. I listen. I dont hear much progress there. I look to measurements also. if an LP system can produce no more than .1% THD or IM and have very good separation and no record funnies and TT funnies and then last long enough to play without distortion from wear encroaching - under certain conditions of operation - I am impressed and would like to hear that system. CD dont sound as good as they should or need to be. But HD and HiRez uncompressed digital are extreamly good sources today when used with an excellent DAC.
But, meanwhile, analog power amps will be a great area of design issues to cover. I think it should be a greater challenge even than low voltage and low current circuitry. Yes, different animal/different needs. But power amps are needed in Any system with speakers.
Sincerely,
Richard Marsh
Richard, a friend of mine here in Belgium (Gydotron audio) used to sell your Marsh power amplifiers. Are these still active products?
Jan
Jan, I don't think since 2005 or so?
It's funny that Marsh & Curl both are agreeing amplifiers. They seem like the most dated thing possible, and yet I find massive disappointment in most of them. (most recently some Spectral amp and preamp I got a listen to, required hot recordings or it flopped)
When you go to an audio show (such as CES) it's hard to find anything but a tube amplifier that can play anything but hot recordings. It's almost literally painful how bad so many systems are at anything less than a hot recording. I played one track in a room that even had tubes, and it wasn't a hot enough track so people literally would come to the door, and turn around.... The rep turned off my test track in a hurry.
Ironically hot recordings, while fun, are almost the antithesis to timbre.
It's funny that Marsh & Curl both are agreeing amplifiers. They seem like the most dated thing possible, and yet I find massive disappointment in most of them. (most recently some Spectral amp and preamp I got a listen to, required hot recordings or it flopped)
When you go to an audio show (such as CES) it's hard to find anything but a tube amplifier that can play anything but hot recordings. It's almost literally painful how bad so many systems are at anything less than a hot recording. I played one track in a room that even had tubes, and it wasn't a hot enough track so people literally would come to the door, and turn around.... The rep turned off my test track in a hurry.
Ironically hot recordings, while fun, are almost the antithesis to timbre.
Not true jan.didden! Actually, the only change with low latency is in the impulse response; the lf directivity is fully maintained. Do your home work next time
Jan
Hi George,
View attachment fbc&v.pdf
I couldn't find it, probably because it is so simple that I probably just started soldering without any further formalities, so I scribbled it down on a piece of paper.
For good measure, I also included a setup with a high/low pass filter in each leg. In the case shown, the amp is voltage feedback dominated at low frequencies, and current feedback dominated at high frequencies. I think in the final implementation the mixing was done through an op amp because the R values feeding the inverting input of the LM3886 get pretty high otherwise.
Might post a picture tonight of the second amp as I made it, because I found a simple way to hammer an LM3886 into matrix board, which might give others inspiration to toy around with this chip.
Vac
I am beginning to think it is speaker issues doing that. low sensitivity, low efficiency, not enough dynamic range with the drivers... at least consumer ones.
I dont think many Marsh amps are sold any more but might still be available in Asia via Magnet Technologies. They own the MARSH as a brand name there. The new CFA will have MARSH carved into its face plate.
THx-RNMarsh
I am talking about last year, possibly early this year. This was in Belgium. No idea as to the manu date though.
Jan
Our member Atmasphere have made interesting LP mastering combination ,
`` Those of you who have been watching the blog on our website may have noticed that we mentioned using a set of M-60s for LP mastering with our mastering lathe.
I thought I would post this for those interested. We chose a Westerx cutterhead, as it has a nominal 10 ohm impedance and the stock transistor cutteramps for it only make 125 watts. So it seemed like we would have no worries with a set of MA-1s to drive it.
However saying that the cutterhead is 10 ohms really glosses over the subject. It starts on the low end at about 8 ohms, has a peak of impedance due to mechanical resonance in the midrange, then continues up from about 9 ohms to about 25 ohms at 25KHz. Now in an LP mastering situation you have to apply the RIAA pre-emphasis; this means that you have to make a fair amount of power at high frequencies because so much emphasis is added.
That is why the transistor amps are rated for so much power (the cutterhead itself cannot handle anything near that power level) because the transistor amps lose power as frequency increases due to the load, being capable of only about 40 watts into this load at 20KHz.
So as a result our M-60 works out to be an ideal amplifier, as it actually is capable of more power/less distortion into the higher impedances.
The cutter system employs a feedback module that adds about 30 db of feedback around the head and amplifier. This is required; without it there would be no channel seperation due to the mechanical suspenions in the head itself. It also controls head resonance.
So we set up a set of M-60s without feedback, and a speaker protection fuse, since you can toast the head pretty good with only 20 watts or maybe a little less.
So far the results have been excellent and the operation is keeping quite busy!
The cutting system is capable of cutting grooves without distortion that no cartridge or arm combination could ever track! In addition, the lathe cuts are considerably quieter than the best vinyl, rivaling digital in terms of dead silence. The bandwith is amazing, good from about 5 Hz to well over 40KHz without effort; with some mods to the electronics and a different needle installed on the cutterhead we could cut a 50KHz subcarrier in the groove with FM stereo modulated on the carrier!
I can't say how well an OTL would work on other cutterheads like the Neumann, but for the Westerex its ideal. ``
`` Those of you who have been watching the blog on our website may have noticed that we mentioned using a set of M-60s for LP mastering with our mastering lathe.
I thought I would post this for those interested. We chose a Westerx cutterhead, as it has a nominal 10 ohm impedance and the stock transistor cutteramps for it only make 125 watts. So it seemed like we would have no worries with a set of MA-1s to drive it.
However saying that the cutterhead is 10 ohms really glosses over the subject. It starts on the low end at about 8 ohms, has a peak of impedance due to mechanical resonance in the midrange, then continues up from about 9 ohms to about 25 ohms at 25KHz. Now in an LP mastering situation you have to apply the RIAA pre-emphasis; this means that you have to make a fair amount of power at high frequencies because so much emphasis is added.
That is why the transistor amps are rated for so much power (the cutterhead itself cannot handle anything near that power level) because the transistor amps lose power as frequency increases due to the load, being capable of only about 40 watts into this load at 20KHz.
So as a result our M-60 works out to be an ideal amplifier, as it actually is capable of more power/less distortion into the higher impedances.
The cutter system employs a feedback module that adds about 30 db of feedback around the head and amplifier. This is required; without it there would be no channel seperation due to the mechanical suspenions in the head itself. It also controls head resonance.
So we set up a set of M-60s without feedback, and a speaker protection fuse, since you can toast the head pretty good with only 20 watts or maybe a little less.
So far the results have been excellent and the operation is keeping quite busy!
The cutting system is capable of cutting grooves without distortion that no cartridge or arm combination could ever track! In addition, the lathe cuts are considerably quieter than the best vinyl, rivaling digital in terms of dead silence. The bandwith is amazing, good from about 5 Hz to well over 40KHz without effort; with some mods to the electronics and a different needle installed on the cutterhead we could cut a 50KHz subcarrier in the groove with FM stereo modulated on the carrier!
I can't say how well an OTL would work on other cutterheads like the Neumann, but for the Westerex its ideal. ``
But you say that the cutter head load impedance increases to 25 ohms at high frequency. The power amp will be fine supplying its max output voltage at that impedance at 20kHz. It does not 'lose power' but the same voltage at a higher impedance consumes less current and thus less power.
You make it sound as if the power amp in some way is limited, but that is not correct. If anybody is to blame for less power consumed at 20kHz it's mister ohm: increase the impedance and less current flows....
Your conclusion that a higher power amp would be needed is not resulting from this.
Jan
Yeah but they say themselves that the cutterhead cannot absorb 'nearly that much power'. Their reasoning is flawed.
If you want as much power into 25 ohms as into 8 ohms you need almost 2 x the voltage. If you have an amp that puts out 100W in 8 ohms, that's 28V RMS. If you increase the voltage to 50VRMS, you'll also get 100W in 25 ohms, BUT if you accidentally feed that in a freq area where the load impedance is 8 ohms, you'll blast more than 300W into that 8 ohms.
Either way, poof! it goes....
Jan
If you want as much power into 25 ohms as into 8 ohms you need almost 2 x the voltage. If you have an amp that puts out 100W in 8 ohms, that's 28V RMS. If you increase the voltage to 50VRMS, you'll also get 100W in 25 ohms, BUT if you accidentally feed that in a freq area where the load impedance is 8 ohms, you'll blast more than 300W into that 8 ohms.
Either way, poof! it goes....
Jan
- Status
- Not open for further replies.