On this point, i follow you once again.. I wonder why all those cones in super modern material, kevlar, carbon fiber, sandwiches etc... that companies produce for having some marketing argument, are just less good than traditional paper !
They can go sometimes a little further in HF, but you always pay this by a big accident at the frequency where the membrane breaks, or they produce a dead sound or this "thump thump" that i don't like.
The unique advantage i found was resistance at humidity.
It is very strange to see that, since i was young, so little progress had been made in speaker's design. After this horrible period of little closed box and "acoustic suspension" initiated by AR, all those tries of Ionovac, Dr Heil, Magneplan etc.. most of all return to bass reflex, horns or conventional cone speakers.
I was wondering about that myself,
- so checked, grammaticality - Correct usage of the verb "do" - English Language & Usage Stack Exchange.I think I scrape in ...
An oldish test, but signs are there..
JMlab Micron & Micron Carat loudspeaker 1996 Measurements | Stereophile.com
I'm friends with local dealer who also happens to sell full line of JMlab/Focal , so I won't say much other than they all sound kind of .. you know, 'not my cup of tea'. I've heard all the top ones, big and small.
JMlab Micron & Micron Carat loudspeaker 1996 Measurements | Stereophile.com
I'm friends with local dealer who also happens to sell full line of JMlab/Focal , so I won't say much other than they all sound kind of .. you know, 'not my cup of tea'. I've heard all the top ones, big and small.
Christophe,
I agree about the majority of composite cone materials. I do use those materials but not the same resins that are the standards of the industry, that is the real problem in my eyes. What has happened is that the speaker designers really don't understand the materials they are working with and just use what has been developed for aerospace applications and that just won't work for a speaker. I don't want to give away what I am doing but I know what the answer is to the breakup you are talking about. The point where the cone will go into breakup modes, which all cones will do above a specific frequency is very high Q with the rigid resin that is commonly used which is epoxy resin. This is the failing of all the real rigid composite cones. A few composite cones are made of carbon fiber and polypropylene and this is somewhat better but they are the few that use that technology.
When I first started down that road I had other objectives than others and made many trials until I got what I wanted. It was so easy to overdo the stiffness and then exactly what you see is what I was getting, very high Q resonance in the FR higher than the pistonic range. With what I am doing now I can tailor the properties for a speaker cone and use a mix of fibers and my own developed resin system. They are closer to paper but I can shape the cone in ways that paper would not function very well
I agree about the majority of composite cone materials. I do use those materials but not the same resins that are the standards of the industry, that is the real problem in my eyes. What has happened is that the speaker designers really don't understand the materials they are working with and just use what has been developed for aerospace applications and that just won't work for a speaker. I don't want to give away what I am doing but I know what the answer is to the breakup you are talking about. The point where the cone will go into breakup modes, which all cones will do above a specific frequency is very high Q with the rigid resin that is commonly used which is epoxy resin. This is the failing of all the real rigid composite cones. A few composite cones are made of carbon fiber and polypropylene and this is somewhat better but they are the few that use that technology.
When I first started down that road I had other objectives than others and made many trials until I got what I wanted. It was so easy to overdo the stiffness and then exactly what you see is what I was getting, very high Q resonance in the FR higher than the pistonic range. With what I am doing now I can tailor the properties for a speaker cone and use a mix of fibers and my own developed resin system. They are closer to paper but I can shape the cone in ways that paper would not function very well
That seems to be what they made these enclosures out of (in Columbia).
Solid with no veneer.
Has a green tinge , unlike home depot material.
Looking at where I fixed a chip out of the finish , some type of grey/black
primer with a coat of real shiny black paint on the outside.
I read later the guy who sells the kits outsourced to a Colombian outfit to make
several thousand of these speakers , sold em' for about 300$ a pair (AV123's).
For critical listening , these are "seamless" - I can actually hear the different characteristics
of all those different front ends sitting 1 meter away from these speakers.
Glad someone threw them out !!
OS
And this is what I'm seeing, from the same review ...
That "Celestion sound" is what I hear from some systems - nice and comfortable, like an old pair of slippers ... but it ain't real ...
Funny how here you want to go by some lame review but you ignore the graph showing that nasty high frequency rise at the top Frank. You are just a waste of my time, you are what we would call someone with oppositional disorder here in the states, you needs some meds. If you notice everyone is saying the same thing, even elektroj just said the same thing without saying it directly as his friend is the JMlabs rep and he doesn't want to be to direct because of that relationship. If you actually would listen to a pair and you don't notice the high frequency rise, and it is extreme then you do need to have your hearing checked. Back in the ignore list for you.
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I think it points out the main virtue of horns or waveguides....... I tried to control it to 90 degrees to minimize wall reflections and toed in towards the listener.
You get the details as if sitting close but at a more reasonable listening distance. A distant second are dipoles/panels with radiation null on sides.
In my first early speaker system (all JBL) I used an LE85 with a conical horn and the 90 degree lens. It was crossover to a 15 inch D130 with its 3 inch metal dome/cover which I measured to be flat and smooth past 3KHz!
THx-RNMarsh
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I really, really shouldn't stir up this old pot of bickering - but I just got a shock: the bloke who does all the speaker associated things in connection with WES Components in Sydney, THE place to get every last thing you could think of with regard to sensible DIY electronics - has hopped into bed with the devil - Bybee by name, .
Ribbon Speaker Kits
Obviously he reckons there's something going on - he's got nothing to gain by associating with "flooby dust" ...
.Ribbon Speaker Kits
Obviously he reckons there's something going on - he's got nothing to gain by associating with "flooby dust" ...
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Richard,
It looks like we both liked those old JBL D130's. When you consider how long ago those were design they still hold a special place with large format 15" drivers. When I first was around PA we used those in place of the Altec's in all the large A2 enclosures but stayed with mostly Altec compression drivers, I alwsys preferred the 1.4" exit Altec drivers over the 2" exit JBL's.
It looks like we both liked those old JBL D130's. When you consider how long ago those were design they still hold a special place with large format 15" drivers. When I first was around PA we used those in place of the Altec's in all the large A2 enclosures but stayed with mostly Altec compression drivers, I alwsys preferred the 1.4" exit Altec drivers over the 2" exit JBL's.
That seems to be what they made these enclosures out of (in Columbia).
Solid with no veneer.
Has a green tinge , unlike home depot material.
Looking at where I fixed a chip out of the finish , some type of grey/black
primer with a coat of real shiny black paint on the outside.
I read later the guy who sells the kits outsourced to a Colombian outfit to make
several thousand of these speakers , sold em' for about 300$ a pair (AV123's).
For critical listening , these are "seamless" - I can actually hear the different characteristics
of all those different front ends sitting 1 meter away from these speakers.
Glad someone threw them out !!
OS
the stuff is probably high density mdf. get it at lowes
FrankWW,
I personally have never seen any Masonite as thick as ostripper has mentioned unless someone glued together a bunch of sheets. Perhaps in another country that is available but I don't know where you would purchase 3/4" or 18mm thickness material. I wasn't about to ask ostripper to do a test and see if the material will peel apart, as the Masonite I've worked with will split into layers like a stack of paper. I would prefer either MDF or Baltic Birch myself. I just don't use what is called Birch ply made in America, it isn't really birch except for the outer layers and the rest is usually patched layers of Douglas fir and the gluing isn't that great. Unless you are going to use constrained layer construction MDF or Birch ply is the ticket.
I personally have never seen any Masonite as thick as ostripper has mentioned unless someone glued together a bunch of sheets. Perhaps in another country that is available but I don't know where you would purchase 3/4" or 18mm thickness material. I wasn't about to ask ostripper to do a test and see if the material will peel apart, as the Masonite I've worked with will split into layers like a stack of paper. I would prefer either MDF or Baltic Birch myself. I just don't use what is called Birch ply made in America, it isn't really birch except for the outer layers and the rest is usually patched layers of Douglas fir and the gluing isn't that great. Unless you are going to use constrained layer construction MDF or Birch ply is the ticket.
A question for all of you dedicated speaker people. I know what happens when I connect two transistors in parallel, and I've seen some speakers of old do the same with tweeters, products from Tandberg, Saba and a few others. What are the pros and cons of paralleling tweeters, of using two in place of one?
It's interesting that this "feature" is there regardless of the material they use. I don't have any of those drivers in hand, but I wonder if anyone who does has probed to determine root cause? Could it be a cavity resonance from the cup in front?
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