Yeah, you reject the parts, send them to the machinist and tell them to do it right. Unless they're completely incompetent, they'll get tired of eating all the materials and labor costs and start doing it right. If they are completely incompetent, you need to find yourself a real machinist. Providing them with a proper set of 1:1 mechanical drawings can help a lot too.
I've always found Neal Feay to be grossly overpriced and have never used them. I've always gone through local general machine shops and have never had any problems.
Should have just hired a better machinist.
I certainly could have done a better industrial design. Unless Wonder bread bland was what you were wanting.
se
Steve Eddy,
Even today my design ques come from the Art Deco and Art Neuvo era of design. The clean lines and use of material in those two design schools are what drives me in industrial design. Modern designs can just leave you cold. The real success of Apple computer can be laid in the hands of the industrial designers and the visual look of the product as much or more than the technical implementation that is often nothing that others haven't done before but not with the elegant designs.
Even today my design ques come from the Art Deco and Art Neuvo era of design. The clean lines and use of material in those two design schools are what drives me in industrial design. Modern designs can just leave you cold. The real success of Apple computer can be laid in the hands of the industrial designers and the visual look of the product as much or more than the technical implementation that is often nothing that others haven't done before but not with the elegant designs.
Yup, agreed. I've no control over how people post and name their creations' link. My book had dovetails with that interleaving, but I couldn't find any via google; that pic was closest I could get.. This site only gives 15 minutes to edit, so I was time limited..
Excuses, excuses.
se
Kindhornman, OF COURSE, we specified tight tolerances, and we still HAD to send a fair amount of stuff back to Neal Feay. It was like they were made by someone with a 'hangover' or with no interest in the job. We had SCRATCHES, BENDS, MISS DRILLED HOLES, ETC. and one time, they even forgot to bend the metal for the power supply box.
I bought a precision, oversized, caliper, good to at least .001 inches for 'big bucks' to me at the time, to double check the work. We went from one place to another, before we found somebody who would do them right. Every excuse in the world seemed to be made by the machinists when we confronted them with it. We would even have 'measuring parties' where several of us would get together and see if the latest batch of aluminum would fit together. Then we would send a certain percentage of it back.
Get real, guys. Either you are sitting at your parents house, condemning the rest of the world, or you work in a big enterprise, and all this stuff is done for you, or you just don't care about fit and finish, but you don't sound like seasoned professionals to me in making cases.
I bought a precision, oversized, caliper, good to at least .001 inches for 'big bucks' to me at the time, to double check the work. We went from one place to another, before we found somebody who would do them right. Every excuse in the world seemed to be made by the machinists when we confronted them with it. We would even have 'measuring parties' where several of us would get together and see if the latest batch of aluminum would fit together. Then we would send a certain percentage of it back.
Get real, guys. Either you are sitting at your parents house, condemning the rest of the world, or you work in a big enterprise, and all this stuff is done for you, or you just don't care about fit and finish, but you don't sound like seasoned professionals to me in making cases.
Steve E,
I still have some tools for my shop that were made in the 30's. The quality of the castings and build quality can not be overstated. My 36" Oliver bandsaw is just so much more rigid than anything I see made today. And my spindle sander is the same along with my 30" disk sander that will spin forever after you shut if off. Quality machine work was a craft and people took pride in the work they put out.
I still have some tools for my shop that were made in the 30's. The quality of the castings and build quality can not be overstated. My 36" Oliver bandsaw is just so much more rigid than anything I see made today. And my spindle sander is the same along with my 30" disk sander that will spin forever after you shut if off. Quality machine work was a craft and people took pride in the work they put out.
Actually the standard used to be tolerances of .005" when laying out by hand! Using engraved rules and dividers made that possible.
.001" is actually a bit of a problem depending on the size of the product.
My press brake shifts level from morning to evening by .005" across it's 8' bed length by the heating of the sun, some days. That affects things a bit. More important is when bending the material actually elongates a bit. The exact amount depends on the strength of the material. As a result we use "Precision steel" it is 30,000 PSI +/- 5%.
Now I use a standard tolerance press brake die. It costs around $40 a foot not including shipping. A precision die is ten times as much. As the guys around here have been known to break dies, I never leave the precision ones in the machine.
I think my turret press is rated for hole positioning of around .003". Never run into a problem as holes are never exactly on size, good practice is to allow a bit for clearance and out of round.
The tooling for the turret press would be rejected if it was out of tolerance by .001"
So holding .001" really depends on the size and processes.
Wigglers
It is in fact an experimental linear test accerator (ETA). Originally developed to test new source designs. If you study them -- Linear accel are very similar to a TWT (Traveling Wave Tube) amplifier in design.
This is the very first test of the wiggler principle or concept and was done at LLNL. The wiggler boosts the energy of the beam as it passes from source to target. The concept was used on the FEL (Free Electron Laser) first tried up at site 300 in the hills outside of Tracy, Calif. This was my job - to coordinate the whole project's electrical and electronics which had a building next to the ETA which housed the mainframe computers and diagnostics and controls. Above were the racks of power and control interfaces. A lot of power and grounding issues .Including the bldgs and everything in them.
Someone's got to do it... might as well have been me. I love that sort of thing. The more complex the better. And no rule book to go by. Brainstorming, creating, problem solving under a schedule of limited time and funds. It doesnt get any better than this, guys.
Thx-RNMarsh
It is in fact an experimental linear test accerator (ETA). Originally developed to test new source designs. If you study them -- Linear accel are very similar to a TWT (Traveling Wave Tube) amplifier in design.
This is the very first test of the wiggler principle or concept and was done at LLNL. The wiggler boosts the energy of the beam as it passes from source to target. The concept was used on the FEL (Free Electron Laser) first tried up at site 300 in the hills outside of Tracy, Calif. This was my job - to coordinate the whole project's electrical and electronics which had a building next to the ETA which housed the mainframe computers and diagnostics and controls. Above were the racks of power and control interfaces. A lot of power and grounding issues .Including the bldgs and everything in them.
Someone's got to do it... might as well have been me. I love that sort of thing. The more complex the better. And no rule book to go by. Brainstorming, creating, problem solving under a schedule of limited time and funds. It doesnt get any better than this, guys.
Thx-RNMarsh
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Well, maybe, back then, Kindhornman.
I have learned that I, nor any of my partners, has ever been a 'genius' at industrial design. In fact, I learned the hard way, that SIMPLE IS BETTER, BECAUSE THERE IS LESS TO CRITICIZE, by others. I lost my primary Vendetta Research partner (the guy who did the cases) when we had a debate over a new line amp case. I had taken it to CES and all I got were negative comments about its look, even from my friends. You guys would have a 'field day'. I came back and confronted my business partner, and he QUIT on the spot in 1990. I had hurt his feelings, see? He thought it was beautiful.
Bob Crump and I went for SIMPLE with the Blowtorch, because less could be criticized, if we did it that way, and as long as the fit and finish was good enough, the unit would be salable.
I have learned that I, nor any of my partners, has ever been a 'genius' at industrial design. In fact, I learned the hard way, that SIMPLE IS BETTER, BECAUSE THERE IS LESS TO CRITICIZE, by others. I lost my primary Vendetta Research partner (the guy who did the cases) when we had a debate over a new line amp case. I had taken it to CES and all I got were negative comments about its look, even from my friends. You guys would have a 'field day'. I came back and confronted my business partner, and he QUIT on the spot in 1990. I had hurt his feelings, see? He thought it was beautiful.
Bob Crump and I went for SIMPLE with the Blowtorch, because less could be criticized, if we did it that way, and as long as the fit and finish was good enough, the unit would be salable.
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Yes, they can. A lot of modern design just seems to lack... "soul" for want of a better word.
Agreed. And since I'm not a pure utilitarian, I really like those touches of elegance.
se
Simon,
We were referencing everything to machine milling of aluminum stock. You are talking sheet metal forming and punching operations and yes then the standards would not be as high normally. The use of cad design programs has help with layout today and yet it still comes down to the machine operator and the setup. I had to solve a problem with a tooling application where we were forming a titanium part for the leading edge of the rotor blades on the Apache helicopter. This was after the part was already surface ground to a tolerance of 0.0001" in thickness. It was a major pain in the rear to say the least.
We were referencing everything to machine milling of aluminum stock. You are talking sheet metal forming and punching operations and yes then the standards would not be as high normally. The use of cad design programs has help with layout today and yet it still comes down to the machine operator and the setup. I had to solve a problem with a tooling application where we were forming a titanium part for the leading edge of the rotor blades on the Apache helicopter. This was after the part was already surface ground to a tolerance of 0.0001" in thickness. It was a major pain in the rear to say the least.
Then it sounds like they were just completely incompetent. But trust me, there are competent machinists out there.
Maybe you're just unusually unlucky, John.
If you want any cases designed and fabricated, give me a call.
se
Neat. no fair with the pic though..you hid the waveguides and it's not possible to see the period changing as it goes off to the distance.. I had discounted an RFQ (radio frequency Quad) because I saw no waveguides.
Grounding is fun, I've that issue with the storage ring here.
You are indeed correct. There is nothing better...
It's really great when the boss comes up to ya and says.."what do you know about 'yada yada' "", to which you respond...what is 'yada yada'?...
And the boss says...don't worry, you'll find out...
It's even more fun when google searches come back with "what???" You want me to look for WHAT??
jn
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Actually John, everyone commenting so far actually knows what they're doing. It's you who is coming across as somebody who thinks specifying .001 tolerance is all you need.
It isn't that simple. Obviously from your anecdotes, you found that out the hard way.
Aluminum is 25.5 ppm/degree C, stainless calipers are 16 ppm/degree C.. Never thunk room temp could be such a problem, eh?
jn
That reminds me of an enginner who was trying to document very small fractions of a dB changes in my large walk-in microwave anechoic chamber with the chamber doors opened and closed frequently so he could go back and forth to read the instruments racked outside the chamber. The temp variations alone would obliterate any fine data he was looking for. He didnt seem to believe me at first. The temp changes to the microwave cable dimensions alone would affect his readings. Mentoring can be great fun.
-Thx-RNMarsh
-Thx-RNMarsh
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By the way, I don't design cases, I let others do it. Sometimes well, sometimes marginally. In any case, I went back to my former business partner who had the original run of cases done at the factory he was working at. The first ones worked great, the next batch was with Neal Feay, and we had all kinds of problems, AND they would not take responsibility for anything (within nominal spec) even if something was obviously offset and would not match up with everything else. I thought at the time that it WAS our fault, but finally we found a vendor (through a recommendation) that worked out. Small companies cannot afford outside 'experts' for everything.
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