Sounds like your amps don’t like the XOs.
The FE208 is a fine driver, to do bass it needs a big horn, and it needs help above 5k or so. If you are into the build go for it, you already have the driver.
Of the 2 others the A12p is very good (suggest Joan or Pensil for a 1st look), i do not like the JX92. I do prefer the A10p to the A12p and you only give up a tiny bit of sensitivity.
The latter 2 give you much more choice in boxes.
dave
The FE208 is a fine driver, to do bass it needs a big horn, and it needs help above 5k or so. If you are into the build go for it, you already have the driver.
Of the 2 others the A12p is very good (suggest Joan or Pensil for a 1st look), i do not like the JX92. I do prefer the A10p to the A12p and you only give up a tiny bit of sensitivity.
The latter 2 give you much more choice in boxes.
dave
I have recently augmented Betsy (without whizzer) with ribbon tweeter with minimalistic crossover. Results are astounding. It works great with Nelson F1J, so I suppose any SE amp would work great.
I intended on expanding on that. Your SET have a highish Rout so a flat impedance becomes important (or you need to choose a speaker tthat expects a high Rout amp. Probably more important than sensitivity. Typical FRs, particularly those with low Qm and a copper polepiece to treduce HF inductance, have a fairly flat impedance curves.
Some drivers, like your FE208e∑ (and the entire FExx6 series) want a highish Rout amplifier.
The A12p (A10p) doesn’t mind either. Here the A10PeN outsold A10.3eN 3 to 1 and was a favorite of the SE tube crowd.
dave
MarkAudio MAOP11 is almighty driver.
I use BH with duct.
Jazz Sounds at MAOP11 and 300B-single
Jazz Sounds at MarkAudio MAOP11 - YouTube
I use BH with duct.
Jazz Sounds at MAOP11 and 300B-single
Jazz Sounds at MarkAudio MAOP11 - YouTube
I have a comment regarding the notion of “jazz” specific or any genre specific speakers. A good speaker should play all genres well. What we need here is one with high mid 90dB sensitivity in order to play well with low power SET amps. Speakers with a smooth flattish response, low distortion, and good tonal balance (lows vs highs), plays all music well.
A couple of other driver/speaker combinations to look at with high sensitivity includes the dual Faital Pro 3FE25-16 Karlsonator. It’s about 93dB at 2.83v and 8ohms. The same size Karlsonator with the Dayton PA130-8 is also excellent.
More info here.
A couple of other driver/speaker combinations to look at with high sensitivity includes the dual Faital Pro 3FE25-16 Karlsonator. It’s about 93dB at 2.83v and 8ohms. The same size Karlsonator with the Dayton PA130-8 is also excellent.
More info here.
Thanks everyone for your response. I’m looking closely at all possibilities. At this point I’m leaning towards the Mark Audio Alpair 12 or 10 P. But I’m still looking. I’m also interested in the Planet 10 hi fi enabled offering in both above drivers. I would appreciate more detail from those who have the “enabled “ drivers. The key for whatever I select is that it will be used in a small room with an SET (2A3). I’m looking also at appropriate cabinets for these drivers. I haven’t been active on this forum in a long time but remain thankful for this community.
To be continued
To be continued
Over the past many years I have repeatedly read the recommendation to use mid-90s efficiency speakers with SET amps. While I don't think this is a "wrong" or "bad" recommendation at all, I do need to report that I am extremely happy driving my 89dB efficient speakers with my 7 watt SET amp. It goes loud enough that it is very difficult to have a conversation (people need to yell) and it stays clean while doing so. It is hard for me to imagine a home system that needs more efficient speakers unless the amp is only capable of 1-2 watts.
Again, I am not saying it is a bad idea to build high efficiency speakers for SET amps - but I think the importance is sometimes over-stated.
UPDATE: In the case of a 2A3 SET, higher efficiency is certainly better than lower.
Again, I am not saying it is a bad idea to build high efficiency speakers for SET amps - but I think the importance is sometimes over-stated.
UPDATE: In the case of a 2A3 SET, higher efficiency is certainly better than lower.
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I am afraid to say that you will only find these drivers used now.
I do know where some available A10PeN are thou.
dave
I have to say i have experienced the same. But even less sensitivity and a touch less power.
A flattish impedance curve really helps. Room size and taste also paly a role.
dave
Hi,
I have to second Dave´s opinion: A handful of GOOD watts is all you need to listen to jazz in a smallish room at "normal" levels, even with efficiency in the 80´s. And yes, for a SET a flattish impedance is required, and achieving this with a single driver is easier than with a multi-way.
Regarding speaker efficiency, there´s a lot of misinformation especially in marketing. Claims of efficiency in the 90´s for small boxes, let´s say with a 5" driver, are phantasy if the driver should do any bass as well and is not corner loaded.
I may add a few real numbers from experience with drivers I´m quite familiar with (as I´m selling them...), but the general meaning should be valid for many other drivers as well.
This 5" FR driver has an efficiency of 91dB/2,8V/1m from TSP, and in an appropriate box (let´s say an 11 litre BR design with a front baffle size of 40x20cm) it does indeed reach this level - but only in the mids and treble region, NOT in the bass and upper bass (I assume the box on stands with some room to breathe, not stuffed in the corners). To end up with a well balanced music presentation this must be corrected, as any mid/treble rise common with many FR drivers. A passive correction circuit will do this, and then you´ll end up with about 85-86dB/2,8V/1m and a few dB´s more in the high treble area (to maintain a proper power response).
This is realistic. Such circuit will counteract the flattish impedance requirement on first hand, but that can easily be adjusted in the circuit itself.
Now this is a relatively low efficiency in terms of marketing... but how many watts will we need to drive it? Based on the voicecoil data, it should be able to survive 20 clean watts. But not in the bass... despite the short coil and low Xlin, let´s assume this driver is comfortable at +-3mm (it is in reality). In a BR design, this is easily reached with just around 1 watt for frequencies below tuning frequency (55Hz in this case) and with around 15 watts above tuning frequency. With a pair of speakers, this results already at more than 100dB/1m, and is pretty loud. Of course, less at larger distances. So again, a handful of clean watts is fully sufficient.
All this is now pretty fine with a SS amp, a SET with high output impedance will exaggerate the bass a little, speaker positions close to boundaries will do the same. Stuffing BR vents and/or adjustment of the circuit will help maintaining a proper balance with a SET.
So, to sum up: in a smallish room, for modest levels around 90dB, a SET with a nice FR driver can play jazz very nice and convincingly, if done right. There are quite a few offers in the 5" class which do not cost the world, like the TB 2143 or the Xizi Fast 5. But then, a high quality correction circuit may easily cost the same...
All the best
Mattes
I have to second Dave´s opinion: A handful of GOOD watts is all you need to listen to jazz in a smallish room at "normal" levels, even with efficiency in the 80´s. And yes, for a SET a flattish impedance is required, and achieving this with a single driver is easier than with a multi-way.
Regarding speaker efficiency, there´s a lot of misinformation especially in marketing. Claims of efficiency in the 90´s for small boxes, let´s say with a 5" driver, are phantasy if the driver should do any bass as well and is not corner loaded.
I may add a few real numbers from experience with drivers I´m quite familiar with (as I´m selling them...), but the general meaning should be valid for many other drivers as well.
This 5" FR driver has an efficiency of 91dB/2,8V/1m from TSP, and in an appropriate box (let´s say an 11 litre BR design with a front baffle size of 40x20cm) it does indeed reach this level - but only in the mids and treble region, NOT in the bass and upper bass (I assume the box on stands with some room to breathe, not stuffed in the corners). To end up with a well balanced music presentation this must be corrected, as any mid/treble rise common with many FR drivers. A passive correction circuit will do this, and then you´ll end up with about 85-86dB/2,8V/1m and a few dB´s more in the high treble area (to maintain a proper power response).
This is realistic. Such circuit will counteract the flattish impedance requirement on first hand, but that can easily be adjusted in the circuit itself.
Now this is a relatively low efficiency in terms of marketing... but how many watts will we need to drive it? Based on the voicecoil data, it should be able to survive 20 clean watts. But not in the bass... despite the short coil and low Xlin, let´s assume this driver is comfortable at +-3mm (it is in reality). In a BR design, this is easily reached with just around 1 watt for frequencies below tuning frequency (55Hz in this case) and with around 15 watts above tuning frequency. With a pair of speakers, this results already at more than 100dB/1m, and is pretty loud. Of course, less at larger distances. So again, a handful of clean watts is fully sufficient.
All this is now pretty fine with a SS amp, a SET with high output impedance will exaggerate the bass a little, speaker positions close to boundaries will do the same. Stuffing BR vents and/or adjustment of the circuit will help maintaining a proper balance with a SET.
So, to sum up: in a smallish room, for modest levels around 90dB, a SET with a nice FR driver can play jazz very nice and convincingly, if done right. There are quite a few offers in the 5" class which do not cost the world, like the TB 2143 or the Xizi Fast 5. But then, a high quality correction circuit may easily cost the same...
All the best
Mattes
It indeed depends on the room and the requested volume. I also listen to jazz in a room of 5x3.5x2.5m with probally only a few watt on speakers that are 88dB efficient now. My amp can do a lot more but i pad my preamp -10dB and only go rarely over a quarter open on the volume dial of my preamp so i'm probally only sending max 2w to the speakers, even if my amp (PP tube) can give 32w. I also have a 20w class D (spare) amp, and there it's the same (but it sounds not that good)...
Hi,
As almost everybody is suggesting higher efficiency speakers, I don't think is super important if you are not planning on blasting high volume.
The best sound I ever heard from 300B amp was with my old Rogers 11 Ohm LS3/5a - in spite of low efficiency - just nice liquid, analogue sound with plenty of bass and fantastic 3D sound scape that is unfolding behind the speakers plane.
They are just perfect for Jazz music in general but blues and classical genres are just as good on them...
I had them in small room ( 4 x 5 meter ) - enough loud to be in trouble with neighbors!
As almost everybody is suggesting higher efficiency speakers, I don't think is super important if you are not planning on blasting high volume.
The best sound I ever heard from 300B amp was with my old Rogers 11 Ohm LS3/5a - in spite of low efficiency - just nice liquid, analogue sound with plenty of bass and fantastic 3D sound scape that is unfolding behind the speakers plane.
They are just perfect for Jazz music in general but blues and classical genres are just as good on them...
I had them in small room ( 4 x 5 meter ) - enough loud to be in trouble with neighbors!
Hi,
Oh yes, and 2 possible options to assemble yourself a complete speaker set:
Falcon Acoustics Mini-Monitor Q7 “Complete@Home” LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEM
LS3/5a Repairs
Oh yes, and 2 possible options to assemble yourself a complete speaker set:
Falcon Acoustics Mini-Monitor Q7 “Complete@Home” LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEM
LS3/5a Repairs
To make this clearer, any amplifier with a highish Rout will exagerate the response anywhere that the impedance rises which is (almost) always the case in the bass.
dave
So an impedance curve that approximately mimics a Fletcher-Munson curve would work as sort of a built-in "loudness" at low to moderate volume levels. 🙂
@Tubemax, I really like your interpretation of the LS3/5A:
Introduction to designing crossovers without measurement
+1 on the use of LS3/5A style bookshelf monitors for jazz. I am actually listening to a lot of great jazz tracks using my homage to the LS3/5A using readily avaialble drivers and an easy to make XO. Full plans for Rockville speaker cabinet and crossover here:
RST28F and DC130A Foamcore Homage to LS3/5A
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Hi,
Yes, but it normally won´t solve any baffle size based frequency effects, as those are higher than the impedance bass peak. And it´s there as well when you´re listening loud...
All the best
Mattes
Hi xrk,
Thanks for comments, I was trying to avoid my 'version' in description because I never listened to them with 300B amp, all my tube gear by now is gone.
But 20 years ago I had extensive amount of self made tube gear - all used with Rogers and later with KEF LS3/5a and it was really most saturating musical experience to date.
I have only one picture left with my first tube ( 6V6 PP mono-block ) amp next to the Rogers and later with KEF together with 300B and 6080/6AS7 OTL amp.
None of them were power monsters but still more then enough power to drive them nicely, surely because of high impedance provided by ls3/5a...
Thanks for comments, I was trying to avoid my 'version' in description because I never listened to them with 300B amp, all my tube gear by now is gone.
But 20 years ago I had extensive amount of self made tube gear - all used with Rogers and later with KEF LS3/5a and it was really most saturating musical experience to date.
I have only one picture left with my first tube ( 6V6 PP mono-block ) amp next to the Rogers and later with KEF together with 300B and 6080/6AS7 OTL amp.
None of them were power monsters but still more then enough power to drive them nicely, surely because of high impedance provided by ls3/5a...
