It is not the same and thinking of it like that will confuse you further. A swept sine measurement works quite differently than you might imagine. It is a way to measure the impulse response without an actual impulse being the stimulus.
https://www.melaudia.net/zdoc/sweepSine.PDF
With all due respect, if you can stand 2 ways that are almost 3 cu ft ... Find a pair of used ESS Tempest LS4, or Performance LS4 speakers and throw away the cabinets. The ones with the ROUND ESS AMT tweeters. NOT the dipoles. Build a well braced two way cabinet at the same volume the cabinets were, with the passive radiators on the sides, OR not used. I don't use them as the bass is tighter without them. Use their crossover, but upgrade the parts and wiring, or build your own crossover.
My pair sounds AMAZING. Extremely dynamic and open, and 94 db efficient. This is about as close as you can get with a 2 way. My speakers reach 35hz in room at 3db down. This is close to full range.
My pair sounds AMAZING. Extremely dynamic and open, and 94 db efficient. This is about as close as you can get with a 2 way. My speakers reach 35hz in room at 3db down. This is close to full range.
What about something more current?
Tannoy VX15HP-W 15" High Power 2-Way Dual-Concentric Passive Speaker, White | Full Compass Systems
supposed +/-3db 70hz-25khz, 99db 1w/1m, 400watts continuous....
Tannoy VX15HP-W 15" High Power 2-Way Dual-Concentric Passive Speaker, White | Full Compass Systems
supposed +/-3db 70hz-25khz, 99db 1w/1m, 400watts continuous....
Yes they could. Could be amazing. But if he wants a full range 2 way, I figure he wasn't planning on using bass bins underneath. I dunno.
Yeah I plan on using a bass bin crossed lower than the mid xo to the tweeter, Its somewhere in between a 3 way and a 2.5 TMM, I always modelled the 15" high passed at 45hz or so...
I once read that a 2.5way is a cheap mans 3 way and that a 3 way always has better mid due to dedicated mid driver...When you have a 2.5way TMM with large 15"s woofers, excursion is minimalized (better coupling than a MTM) and when you keep the bottom woofer away from the tweeter XO you create a normal 2way polar there....its the best possible configuration that never got glorified....
Its a 2.5 TMM crossed with a 3 way....I want to make up a new name....its a 2.2 system with two way mains really, if the cross is 120hz that's still a subwoofer territory in some camps (THX)....The XO design changes all the time......I've gotta fill the boxes with damping material and add a connector of some kind (slowest build ever) before I get to play in the real world..Last Vituix saves shows a 2nd order butterworth at 6.7hz ...Im down 25db near 250hz...
I once read that a 2.5way is a cheap mans 3 way and that a 3 way always has better mid due to dedicated mid driver...When you have a 2.5way TMM with large 15"s woofers, excursion is minimalized (better coupling than a MTM) and when you keep the bottom woofer away from the tweeter XO you create a normal 2way polar there....its the best possible configuration that never got glorified....
Its a 2.5 TMM crossed with a 3 way....I want to make up a new name....its a 2.2 system with two way mains really, if the cross is 120hz that's still a subwoofer territory in some camps (THX)....The XO design changes all the time......I've gotta fill the boxes with damping material and add a connector of some kind (slowest build ever) before I get to play in the real world..Last Vituix saves shows a 2nd order butterworth at 6.7hz ...Im down 25db near 250hz...
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camplo said
Now it looks as if I will need a sub, because this new Eminence deltapro-15a build is going to be lumpy response from 120 hz to 32 hz. If I tune the box to 25 hz there will be a hole in the middle to 120 hz. I didn't take the SP2-XT apart to see what was in there when I had them. ****. The Peavey 1505-8KADT 15" driver can't be that much flatter than the Eminence below 120 hz on its own, without help from the box.
Rock&Roll, I don't know if there is even any sound under 50 hz in the tracks. The entire Peavey stage speaker line, even the 118 (18" driver) has no reponse below 40 hz. You have to buy woofers from Allen organ or Petersen Electro-music to get flat to 27 hz response.
The 25 hz in pop culture seems to be earthquakes in movies. I find action adventure flicks too hokey to even watch, since miniatures were replaced by computer effects.
If I do build a sub with something like the Eminence Kappapro-15LF, I'll cross over to it only below 120 hz. I may end up tuning the Deltapro15 box to 60 hz or so with the port, if the response is too bad tuned to 25.
I had a pair of 2 ways that were +- 3db 50 hz to 17 khz, my SP2-XT. I didn't buy a sub, I was happy with that. The midranges were all I wanted, plenty of dispersion with 22 deg horizontal. Where I hear 27 - 49 hz was mostly organ LP's, where the recording engineer filtered down 32' frequencies to keep the records from being returned when the "fine wood console" tone arms jumped out of the groove. (post 1964?) The 32' stops were there in 1950's Colombia LP recordings of E.P.Biggs. My turntable & Shure M97EraIV cartridge would play the low notes full volume.
Now it looks as if I will need a sub, because this new Eminence deltapro-15a build is going to be lumpy response from 120 hz to 32 hz. If I tune the box to 25 hz there will be a hole in the middle to 120 hz. I didn't take the SP2-XT apart to see what was in there when I had them. ****. The Peavey 1505-8KADT 15" driver can't be that much flatter than the Eminence below 120 hz on its own, without help from the box.
Rock&Roll, I don't know if there is even any sound under 50 hz in the tracks. The entire Peavey stage speaker line, even the 118 (18" driver) has no reponse below 40 hz. You have to buy woofers from Allen organ or Petersen Electro-music to get flat to 27 hz response.
The 25 hz in pop culture seems to be earthquakes in movies. I find action adventure flicks too hokey to even watch, since miniatures were replaced by computer effects.
If I do build a sub with something like the Eminence Kappapro-15LF, I'll cross over to it only below 120 hz. I may end up tuning the Deltapro15 box to 60 hz or so with the port, if the response is too bad tuned to 25.
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Did you modify the crossover?
About 6 octaves, including bass, is a wide range for a woofer.
I kept all the values the same. They came from the factory this way. I just upgraded the parts quality.
Yea, I replaced my speaker cables and wow what a difference!!
Is this where threads on DIY are going? What a shame. Some good ideas were being discussed.
Is this where threads on DIY are going? What a shame. Some good ideas were being discussed.
Mr. Geddes .... I understand your point. BUT there are people who have impedance mismatches with certain cables and amp, etc ... It is VERY possible for a cable change to make audible differences, if it's not working well with your amp or system.
Unless you do something fundamentally wrong, mismatch between ordinary cables and solid state amps are near impossible. I never cease to be amazed how people are able to create or dream up problems in audio for matters solved 50 years ago.
But all this is completely off topic.
But all this is completely off topic.
😀
I was thinking about what you said about bass and distortion and ears.... my thought was that if the woofers movements are distorted that they are going to effect any other range that its touching in a negative way... sounded good at least....can a woofer play a bass signal thats causing it to distort, but play midrange cleanly at the same time?
I gave up on group delay for a second because you were the only person to respond to Martins words...So you obviously know what he said where as I am still learning the math...Im almost certain that group delay being the "slope of the phase curve" is very much like unwrapped phase measured in ms...
If "the woofers movements are distorted" then all you say is true. The simple solution - don't distort them.
honestly seems like a bit of a joke. they say there are no glaring issues in the measurement. what about that HUGE notch above 10k.... or the so-so polars.
Some comments of a general nature.
There seems to be a gap between objectivity (a scientific approach) and subjectivity (a strictly personal pov), especially on ASR.
Although I personally value scientific / verifiable information, some people reject in advance certain perspectives that are not (yet) scientifically or otherwise substantiated with data.
Amir's initiative is commendable, and his objective, measurement-driven reviews are a welcome addition to the myriad of websites and forums where audiophile nonsense is rampant.
The downside of such a rigid regime is that it attracts hordes of bored anal disciples who never miss an opportunity to vent their pleasing opinion in order to receive some likes. The resulting cancel culture leaves little room for new insights or divergent opinions.
Products are frequently judged solely based on less than perfect measurement data. Such narrow-mindedness often goes hand in hand with a lack of deeper understanding and a broader experience.
Having blind faith in any authority, scientific or not, can be dangerous 😉
To avoid any misunderstanding, the above comments are not personally directed at you, Drofdissonance.
Regarding the test of the Funktion One Resolution 6, the skeleton horn tops are often used in pairs that are pointed at the dance floor. As can be seen in the test data, a uniform radiation pattern is thus obtained over a wide angle, whereby the integration between the woofer and compression driver is improved.
Cynics will undoubtedly argue that polars of brand X or Y are even better, but the average club attendee tends to judge a sound system based on completely different characteristics.
The dominant position that Funktion One has occupied for years in the lists of best-rated clubs(ystems) doesn't come out of the blue.
As for that notch, it's the breakup of the B&C DE820TN, which looks worse in the plot than it actually is in terms of audible resonances. It adds some sparkle to the treble.
There seems to be a gap between objectivity (a scientific approach) and subjectivity (a strictly personal pov), especially on ASR.
Although I personally value scientific / verifiable information, some people reject in advance certain perspectives that are not (yet) scientifically or otherwise substantiated with data.
Amir's initiative is commendable, and his objective, measurement-driven reviews are a welcome addition to the myriad of websites and forums where audiophile nonsense is rampant.
The downside of such a rigid regime is that it attracts hordes of bored anal disciples who never miss an opportunity to vent their pleasing opinion in order to receive some likes. The resulting cancel culture leaves little room for new insights or divergent opinions.
Products are frequently judged solely based on less than perfect measurement data. Such narrow-mindedness often goes hand in hand with a lack of deeper understanding and a broader experience.
Having blind faith in any authority, scientific or not, can be dangerous 😉
To avoid any misunderstanding, the above comments are not personally directed at you, Drofdissonance.
Regarding the test of the Funktion One Resolution 6, the skeleton horn tops are often used in pairs that are pointed at the dance floor. As can be seen in the test data, a uniform radiation pattern is thus obtained over a wide angle, whereby the integration between the woofer and compression driver is improved.
Cynics will undoubtedly argue that polars of brand X or Y are even better, but the average club attendee tends to judge a sound system based on completely different characteristics.
The dominant position that Funktion One has occupied for years in the lists of best-rated clubs(ystems) doesn't come out of the blue.
As for that notch, it's the breakup of the B&C DE820TN, which looks worse in the plot than it actually is in terms of audible resonances. It adds some sparkle to the treble.
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More on topic:
It might be useful to discuss asymmetrical crossover topologies for large 2-way systems. Those including woofers with a flat-ish response as well as typical midwoofers > rising response.
It might be useful to discuss asymmetrical crossover topologies for large 2-way systems. Those including woofers with a flat-ish response as well as typical midwoofers > rising response.
Random shower thoughts...
Here's my idea of an array of 19x 1.5" fullrange speakers (Tymphany TC5FC00-04). At low frequency all the drivers work together at about -15dB. At high frequency only the centre driver plays without any attenuation. The outer ring is heavily rolled off at high frequency while the inner ring is rolled off about half as much. By carefully tuning the filters you achieve smooth power response without huge nulls appearing at certain angles like a single large speaker does. Impedance is a near constant ~4ohm. Sensitivity in the 90's @ 2.83V. My plan would be to build as an MTM with a pair of 8" woofers. With a 300Hz crossover you barely get any of the typical MTM problems that you would with a normal 8" MTM/2-way, and the woofers don't have to be anything special since the crossover is so low. Something like a pair of Dayton DA215-8's would probably work well.
I guess there is no reason that you couldn't scale it up to 10 or 12" woofers and a larger array and/or larger fullrange speakers (consider TC7FC00) and bring the crossover below 200Hz if you can cope with a slightly more directional top end. Unless you need stupid SPL then 8" woofers is probably more than enough for home hifi usage.
Here's my idea of an array of 19x 1.5" fullrange speakers (Tymphany TC5FC00-04). At low frequency all the drivers work together at about -15dB. At high frequency only the centre driver plays without any attenuation. The outer ring is heavily rolled off at high frequency while the inner ring is rolled off about half as much. By carefully tuning the filters you achieve smooth power response without huge nulls appearing at certain angles like a single large speaker does. Impedance is a near constant ~4ohm. Sensitivity in the 90's @ 2.83V. My plan would be to build as an MTM with a pair of 8" woofers. With a 300Hz crossover you barely get any of the typical MTM problems that you would with a normal 8" MTM/2-way, and the woofers don't have to be anything special since the crossover is so low. Something like a pair of Dayton DA215-8's would probably work well.
I guess there is no reason that you couldn't scale it up to 10 or 12" woofers and a larger array and/or larger fullrange speakers (consider TC7FC00) and bring the crossover below 200Hz if you can cope with a slightly more directional top end. Unless you need stupid SPL then 8" woofers is probably more than enough for home hifi usage.
I designed and built a system like this many years ago. It works OK, but as your data shows will have a seriously rising DI curve. Not my goal at any rate.
It's also not very cost effective unless you use inexpensive small drivers, which then seriously limit output power.
It's also not very cost effective unless you use inexpensive small drivers, which then seriously limit output power.