@camplo It's the same reason why I sometimes add some reverb when listening to headphones in general.
Otherwise it can sound extremely dry like you mentioned.
It's kinda ironic to some of the design goals some people have.
They like to perfectly "hear" what's on the recording.
Nobody ever explained why someone wants to do that, but with headphones you come very close.
The experience is less than ideal in my opinion.
I used to work for a acoustic consultant company, they mostly did big theaters and such.
They always had to make a compromise in room acoustics between the music that was being played.
A live orchestra asks for very different acoustics, even depending on the style and culture
(although here it's mostly just western European classical music).
Which is totally different than a small assemble, flamenco, pop or rock music.
Some theaters halls can even be changed on the fly for this reason.
When the acoustics were off, this really could ruin the entire performance and experience.
Even to the very average listener.
For this same reason a listening room can never be optimized for all styles of music, let alone recordings.
Otherwise it can sound extremely dry like you mentioned.
It's kinda ironic to some of the design goals some people have.
They like to perfectly "hear" what's on the recording.
Nobody ever explained why someone wants to do that, but with headphones you come very close.
The experience is less than ideal in my opinion.
I used to work for a acoustic consultant company, they mostly did big theaters and such.
They always had to make a compromise in room acoustics between the music that was being played.
A live orchestra asks for very different acoustics, even depending on the style and culture
(although here it's mostly just western European classical music).
Which is totally different than a small assemble, flamenco, pop or rock music.
Some theaters halls can even be changed on the fly for this reason.
When the acoustics were off, this really could ruin the entire performance and experience.
Even to the very average listener.
For this same reason a listening room can never be optimized for all styles of music, let alone recordings.
As far as rumours go: Peter Qvortrup fancies mono recordings on vinyl, add to that the fact the Audio Note speakers are too small/not designed to deliver enough bass for that size of room, and you can see why Peter would happily place them in the corners and not be worried about imaging per se..
I'd challenge you a bit there- If the room has neutral acoustics and the speaker is directional, you can minimize the impact of the room tuning on the playback- ultimately targeting "You are there" and being limited to the ambience of the recording, which is a neutral approach across genres. Totally agree with you on recording as a core limitation, where some may be "dry" without additional flavor from the room, the above assumes recording criteria with ambience the listener is meant to hear already recorded, not "enhanced by room. Really I just mean it's a recording issue not a room or genre issue, if the room is minimized (headphones or as I do with horns, arrayed bass, and acoustic treatment) and the recording contains intended spatial information.
Badman, the issue is that you`re setting limits by "if the room has neutral acoustics" ( define neutral) and by "not enhanced by room".
Any neutral room will have it`s own signature, and e.g. a big theatre and small room, both may sound neutral, it`s signatures are that different, that I`d be surprised if e.g. a recording of a small room orchestra would sound optimal when played back in a big theatre. These signatures might bite, even though both are neutral.
Any neutral room will have it`s own signature, and e.g. a big theatre and small room, both may sound neutral, it`s signatures are that different, that I`d be surprised if e.g. a recording of a small room orchestra would sound optimal when played back in a big theatre. These signatures might bite, even though both are neutral.
I'd like to weigh in here. I would define a "neutral" room as one that has diverse reflections and a flat power response given a flat power response source. It's hard for me to see how a room like this would not enhance the playback (unless you are a fan of headphones - which I am not. Useful when you need them, but not for critical listening.)
So IMO rooms can enhance playback but only if the very early reflections/diffractions from the room are minimized. ALL late arriving - after a "fusion" time - random reflections are perceived as good (spaciousness) as long as there are not strongly pronounced ones (i.e. near the direct sound in level.) But, they can also destroy things.
Within the last couple of weeks I went to see a live flamenco performance. I was excited. Well it was in a large ballroom with an RT measured in minutes
The room ruined the performance. It was almost inaudible noise,
There are basically two types of common rooms. Smaller home sizes with strong modal effects and larger spaces with none of these effects. There is a large middle ground but these rooms are not as common as the other two. But once we get above Fs, then all the rooms are basically the same - statistically.
So IMO rooms can enhance playback but only if the very early reflections/diffractions from the room are minimized. ALL late arriving - after a "fusion" time - random reflections are perceived as good (spaciousness) as long as there are not strongly pronounced ones (i.e. near the direct sound in level.) But, they can also destroy things.
Within the last couple of weeks I went to see a live flamenco performance. I was excited. Well it was in a large ballroom with an RT measured in minutes
The room ruined the performance. It was almost inaudible noise,There are basically two types of common rooms. Smaller home sizes with strong modal effects and larger spaces with none of these effects. There is a large middle ground but these rooms are not as common as the other two. But once we get above Fs, then all the rooms are basically the same - statistically.
Wouldn't a "they are here" presentation deprive you of the possibility to appreciate the differences in the acoustics of the original venues where the music was recorded? (assuming the recording technique used allows for capuring that in the first place, of course).
I aim for a "you are there" presentation which allows me to close my eyes and forget that I'm in my room, and instead get "teleported" to another venue = the one where the musuc was recorded.
This is what I am targeting... it is why I think higher DI takes priority over lower, constant, DI, as long as its smooth transitioning, like in the case of an elliptical tractrix/exponential horn.
I don't think rising DI will stop one from achieving nuetral room character. Less room treatment will be needed in the case of higher DI that is rising vs lower DI that is constant. That's just a guess but what seems to be true is that large rooms have rising DI and they sound good to many people. So have rising DI as I do that is smooth and lacking large dips/peaks only makes my small room sound more diffuse. I also sit about 56"-36" making the room even more diminished... all this happening before a lick of room treatment.
So anything beyond 15ms is considered late, if I'm reading that correctly...In a small room, there will be lots of early reflections... Increasing the DI and room dampening are the first 2 methods to diminish the levels of ER. IMO Increasing DI is more desirable than Room treatment, possibly more effective too... room treatment added to a system of high Di is the icing on the cake.
Or....maybe less effort going into increasing DI where the spectrums above the room modes.... and more effort into getting directivity down to 200hz or lower....
🤔
The ambience effects on a recording is just a part of the recording, like the recorded music. The speaker produces a single ongoing analog soundwave after all. The "you are there" vs. "they are here" perception is a matter of preference, the "they are here" experience includes the recorded ambience/spaciousness to be "here" as well and will be perceived apart from the local ambience. The two different ambiences will not mix i.m.e. but it may be so that the room swamps the recorded ambience.
Problem is that a multi-way speaker actually don't produce just one single wave... thats a property of a single driver speaker - the membrane can only be in one position at a time.
"I'm there" for me - the alternative produces a loge / dollhouse feeling that I don't care for. It's good that we declare which camp we are in because I think this aspect is one fo the more basic and important one for a "stereo".... as it means that one can weigh sound impression comments...
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"I'm there" for me - the alternative produces a loge / dollhouse feeling that I don't care for. It's good that we declare which camp we are in because I think this aspect is one fo the more basic and important one for a "stereo".... as it means that one can weigh sound impression comments...
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Yeah, I think real question is at what frequency bandwidth DI should be high to make meaningful difference in the context? and how high, what is the relationship between room acoustics and DI and hearing system exactly?
Geddes pointed out earlier on another thread that there is plenty of time to compute high frequency information from direct sound before reflections come in, regardless of DI, while at low frequency this is about never the case, reflections come in before direct sound has had enough time to be perceived as such. At some low frequency loudspeaker DI is about 0, and it is natural to have quite high DI at high frequency when wavelength gets smaller than transducer, so importance of DI for perception must be somewhere in between.
Both hearing system (time for processing), normal living room acoustics and speaker directivity are all naturally so that at low frequencies D/R is poor in relation to high frequencies. One has to make effort to tilt either the room acoustics or speaker directivity or both. Can'd do nothing about hearing system with technology of today.
Hence, talking about "high DI" in this sense, how it affects sound perception through room reflections, must include knowledge about bandwidth, bandwidth that is important for hearing system. Any idea whats the bandwidth, or how to experiment with this at home?
Also low and high frequency matter to perceived sound quality, how the room affects perceived sound quality. Generalizing to three things now, lows mids and highs all with somewhat separate "qualities" in regards of how room affects perceived sound. I think all of then can and should be optimized separately.
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Or what the producer decided to include. Here’s a shot from the Concertgebouw ceiling where the ambiance mikes are hung, lots of choices just on placement based on the needs of different recording concepts. My view is that recording is the art and we must comply with that.
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