Those are quite interesting and actually priced reasonably……….is there any real world testing/reviews?
Not seen anything yet except for this (paid?) review...
https://www.lbtechreviews.com/test/speakers/vestlyd-v15c
https://www.lbtechreviews.com/test/speakers/vestlyd-v15c
Exactly my take on the problem(s). If FR is good and range is excellent, dynamics are great, how can a speaker totally miss the dynamics of a (simple?) snare drum?
We have talked through this topic not long ago... My take on it is; First we have to be honest about transient peak levels... using a meter that actually captures "true peak" is the starting point.... Source and Reproduction, alike.
Next, its as simple as realizing how much demand on the driver, is required to achieve true peak levels, when listening distance is incorporated...
...From there, we simply seek to keep play back within Xmax.....Maybe excursion should never go past half xmax if thats were BL starts to drop.
By turning down the volume.... a dynamically sup par system can be kept within linear playback... once we try to reach realistic levels, of a snare drum.... sht gets crazy....easily near and possible over 120db peaks is my guess, depending on listening distance. I sat in front of mine.
Without getting picky about where the transient may land on the spl scale... just know that only the larger Systems are capable, at distance. I think that any excursion that causes BL to drop significantly, is an issue too.
I've seen others talk of instrument size vs speaker size... We need about 2, 20"-24" woofers for the kick... and 2, 10-16" for the snare/toms ...I think the average snare is 14".
If we think solely driver size...only the relationship between direct and indirect energy changes.... matters, but, only if we could change independently from all other character (we can't lol), the source size....from there I would look at Xmax. From My experience, and what I can recall at this moment, I think mid bass is where a lot of systems fail, along with sub bass, which we never expected from the small system anyway.100-300hz If I had to guess. It is a very active area and likely candidate for the highest True peak material, on average. The bottom of the snare drum lives here as well, if I am not mistaken along with a dash of generalization.
My attempts to study this in action are dulled by the lack of tools to view True peak and Frequency at the same time.....Being familiar with sound engineering tools, I can at least pull up a True peak meter and use the EQ to narrow in on different parts of the spectrum, while viewing the peak meter.... How we don't have access to a RTA that reads true peak, is above my pay grade but I have a habit of speaking into existence, maybe it will come across my path in the form of some new plug ins that I haven't heard of yet lol...My RTA will hint at where the highest peaks are but will not capture them to accurately report the levels, So badly, that sometimes the attempt's to display a peak are completely missed and I have to replay the material and hope the timing works out....Thats using REWs RTA....my VST RTA is on the same page.
Essentially we are dealing with distortion.
This system does not look like I think it should to reach 115db (equal to or exceeding) at 1 meter, which I feel, is a sort of unspoken standard. When I surveyed the crowd of people I frequented here during the development of my system, a 15" mid driver and a compression driver was the Apex components to Sound Quality... many people, much more experienced and smarts, agreed unanimously, with a slight deviation towards a 12" in some cases... So any system lacking a mid woofer of similar size, I immediately assume it is below par. As I said above, I think, its the mid bass that is getting let down. So looking at a system like this
The 15" Bass woofer comes in at 380hz....The Magico M2 above crosses over a 6" midrange to 2 - 7" drivers at 300hz..... The Sd of the ATC 15" is 3 times larger than the Magico. a 15" vs 2 7" woofers in a 231liter box....
Thats being generous as the 15" is playing slightly louder than the dual 7's. and the 15 is in sealed enclosure, in my example of what happens, at about 115db/1m.
The Dual 7"s are likely just about at Xmax (likely 10mm)...Where as the 15" is at about half Xmax. Right there we have a distortion difference in favor of the 15" in regards to linear transient peak. Assuming that each systems drivers are subject to similar Excursion vs Distortion relationship. Specificity is a friend to topics like this, yet I am trying to generalize...Either system, needs a sub woofer in my opinion. But lets consider the experience without one....As Sub Bass calls upon the 15" and 2 - 7" woofers, excursion will get excessive. As the woofers are pushed to xmax and beyond, not only will the, say 40hz, note be distorted, so will everything else, up to the crossover point, during the reproduction of 40hz note.
Tweeters have very small excursion ability yet small excursion requirements...I am not certain at this moment if tweeters are hindering the transient peak....talking about dome tweeters vs Compression drivers...
Above 300hz and 380hz we have a 6' mid woofer and a 3" dome in a 6inch waveguide. I don't think anything in this area is being stifled in either design.
Thats my take on it the issue at least....Consider that we are talking about 1m in the sims above...A listening distance that most, I have talked to here, are not entertaining, leaning towards 2-3m, probably.....only exacerbating the issue of excursion.
Horn Systems
These were high on my 'to listen' list:
It was one of the first rooms we visited.
When we entered the room, music from a Dutch band was playing; a prominent male singer accompanied by sparse acoustic instrumentation, mainly guitar. We all (3) sat down to listen, but in different places.
To be honest, my expectations of this Ø Audio Icon were quite high, as the concept appeals to me, the execution seems well thought out and the reviews are mostly positive.
Whereas the music was far from demanding, something didn't sound right, especially the voice.
The low register seemed to be disconnected from the higher range. The latter sounded pinched and almost literally as if through some sort of funnel...
Indeed, due to the XR1496.
While my brother and our buddy got up after the first track, I sat down to listen to a part of the next track. Same story.
I got up half way to chat with the distributor. Off-axis the effect was less noticeable, which makes sense.
Once outside, it turned out that we unanimously had the same listening experience. Our buddy - while not an audio nut, does play some instruments and his comments matched ours.
It's quite remarkable because in most of the reviews of the Icon, the imaging - especially with voices, is praised. Here's one in Dutch.
Perhaps the listening distance plays a role, but it is clear to me that this horn is not an option for serious listening at home.
I've heard the same horn in a PA speaker before, but at a greater distance in a bar.
On German and French forums I've read similar critical comments about the XR1496, so I'm not the only one.
These were high on my 'to listen' list:
It was one of the first rooms we visited.
When we entered the room, music from a Dutch band was playing; a prominent male singer accompanied by sparse acoustic instrumentation, mainly guitar. We all (3) sat down to listen, but in different places.
To be honest, my expectations of this Ø Audio Icon were quite high, as the concept appeals to me, the execution seems well thought out and the reviews are mostly positive.
Whereas the music was far from demanding, something didn't sound right, especially the voice.
The low register seemed to be disconnected from the higher range. The latter sounded pinched and almost literally as if through some sort of funnel...
Indeed, due to the XR1496.
While my brother and our buddy got up after the first track, I sat down to listen to a part of the next track. Same story.
I got up half way to chat with the distributor. Off-axis the effect was less noticeable, which makes sense.
Once outside, it turned out that we unanimously had the same listening experience. Our buddy - while not an audio nut, does play some instruments and his comments matched ours.
It's quite remarkable because in most of the reviews of the Icon, the imaging - especially with voices, is praised. Here's one in Dutch.
Perhaps the listening distance plays a role, but it is clear to me that this horn is not an option for serious listening at home.
I've heard the same horn in a PA speaker before, but at a greater distance in a bar.
On German and French forums I've read similar critical comments about the XR1496, so I'm not the only one.
To my surprise I saw the Fleetwood Devilles set up against the side wall, as we entered the large Avantgarde room.
Different from this photo - which was taken the day before, they were connected to an all-in-one streamer amplifier (Lindemann I believe).
2 tracks from "Dark Side of the Moon" were played, one of my favorite albums from my early teens.
These speakers have a lot of potential. Apart from a slight 'cuppy sound' > typical for straight-walled (conical) horns, there wasn't much to complain about.
Bass and mids sounded very natural (high Fs B&C woofer with extended bass shelf > large cab + overdamped tuning below Fs) and the B&C comp. is devoid of harshness.
At a few meters distance they sound well-composed and pleasant > nothing stands out in a negative way. You can listen to these for hours without listening fatigue.
I'm tempted to build my own versions with a different horn.
Different from this photo - which was taken the day before, they were connected to an all-in-one streamer amplifier (Lindemann I believe).
2 tracks from "Dark Side of the Moon" were played, one of my favorite albums from my early teens.
These speakers have a lot of potential. Apart from a slight 'cuppy sound' > typical for straight-walled (conical) horns, there wasn't much to complain about.
Bass and mids sounded very natural (high Fs B&C woofer with extended bass shelf > large cab + overdamped tuning below Fs) and the B&C comp. is devoid of harshness.
At a few meters distance they sound well-composed and pleasant > nothing stands out in a negative way. You can listen to these for hours without listening fatigue.
I'm tempted to build my own versions with a different horn.
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It probably does, barely
Max loudness, in-room: 108dBA for a stereo pair.
Magico M2 + Mpod3-PT stand € 99.900
A lot of words can be wasted on the analysis of this completely redundant high-tech overkill.
If you're looking for good studio monitors, they can be bought for a fraction of the price.
If you want to enjoy music, a simple no-nonsense design like this will suffice > at Munich high-end voted 'best of show' by many vistors and reviewers.
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I split the frequencies using a minimum phase eq....maybe using linear phase would be better. The signal is a passage from "The Hulk" where a big rock or something hits the water....much bass, much noise on impact.... The -4.88db peak between 900-2.5khz goes unnoticed by the RTA...or any RTA that I know of. The peak below 65hz is shy 5db on the RTA.
This is a rough version of the product that I would want...and also a good way to study true peak vs frequency in the mean time.
Here the dynamic snare and kick entrance to
Some of the separated tracks clip where as the source track doesn't... never understood why it does that since I haven't used any gain.
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High-end materials that left me cold/unimpressed:
You can think something up, but that doesn't mean it sounds coherent:
I'm convinced that if you replace the Voxativ full-range driver with a proper waveguide, the whole thing improves considerably.
Same story, with Field Coil this time:
Bass was amongst the worst of show, partly due to the small room and placement.
You can think something up, but that doesn't mean it sounds coherent:
I'm convinced that if you replace the Voxativ full-range driver with a proper waveguide, the whole thing improves considerably.
Same story, with Field Coil this time:
Bass was amongst the worst of show, partly due to the small room and placement.
All those horns are better, which seems logical, because the slots are circular and the throat/phase plug is visible.
The directivity sonograms provide a clue wrt imaging/staging characteristics > gradual narrowing - without prominent lobes, sounds more natural.
A comment I was able to dig up.
After the 2nd Pink Floyd track, the new Avantgarde Trio G3 was demonstrated.
Nextel coated horns and sources were initially:
When we came back to listen to Daft Punk & Moroder they had switched to this player:
While a day and night difference may be a bit exaggerated, there was clearly a degradation in sound quality.
I was very skeptical about the Trio, based on past experiences with 'cheaper' Avantgarde models. I expected typical multi-horn characteristics, including beaming and clearly discernible transitions between the horn sections. It must be said that Avantgarde has succeeded wonderfully in virtually eliminating these phenomena. Although we listened at a fairly large distance (8-10 meters), even when walking back and forth over a distance of about 4 meters, there was hardly any 'shift' in the image noticeable. That deserves praise.
During this demo the importance of bass horns became very clear. The lows were fully integrated with the Spherical horn sections.
With the AN sources I found the overall 'signature' to be quite natural, not excellent but very good. When the streamer was used the sound became clearly more synthetic and a bit flat.
When I think of Audio Note, I think of simplicity. Simplicity is the basis of 'grip'. That's also why I applaud threads like this.
That said, the Trio is anything but a minimalistic horn system - especially with the current driven active amps, as you can read here.
Nextel coated horns and sources were initially:
When we came back to listen to Daft Punk & Moroder they had switched to this player:
While a day and night difference may be a bit exaggerated, there was clearly a degradation in sound quality.
I was very skeptical about the Trio, based on past experiences with 'cheaper' Avantgarde models. I expected typical multi-horn characteristics, including beaming and clearly discernible transitions between the horn sections. It must be said that Avantgarde has succeeded wonderfully in virtually eliminating these phenomena. Although we listened at a fairly large distance (8-10 meters), even when walking back and forth over a distance of about 4 meters, there was hardly any 'shift' in the image noticeable. That deserves praise.
During this demo the importance of bass horns became very clear. The lows were fully integrated with the Spherical horn sections.
With the AN sources I found the overall 'signature' to be quite natural, not excellent but very good. When the streamer was used the sound became clearly more synthetic and a bit flat.
When I think of Audio Note, I think of simplicity. Simplicity is the basis of 'grip'. That's also why I applaud threads like this.
That said, the Trio is anything but a minimalistic horn system - especially with the current driven active amps, as you can read here.
You should not place an open baffle so near to the rear wall. It is no wonder that this compromised bass performance.
We had by far the most fun in one of the worst rooms in terms of acoustics.
Although I have come across a few positive reviews online - which probably says something about the ears and the knowledge of those reviewers, we considered the demos primarily as a source of brand damage and a waste of time and money.
When we entered the room, music was playing and I immediately said to the guy from Audio Note (factory employee): "They gave you one of the worst rooms." He acknowledged that the acoustics were indeed appalling and demonstrated this with a handclap.
I was curious about the 2a3 monoblocks that are rarely used for demos.
The bass was boomy, including several modes and the reflections/reverberance made it difficult to judge the mid/highs.
I urged the other 2 to focus on the direct sound as much as possible, to get a glimpse of the qualities.
My brother had already studied the setup beforehand and it was supposed to be 'copper based'. However, I did detect a typical characteristic that is perhaps best described as: extreme, somewhat unnatural, brightness/clarity.
So I asked the AN guy: "The AN-Es are copper wired, aren't they?".
His reply: "No, these have silver wiring and voice coils", which probably explained what I heard.
In addition, we received an excellent disquisition of the ways AN deals with gain structure and impedance.
No boring audiophile crap music was played in this room, but a great variety of good music, which is not always well recorded.
A German had bought some LPs which were played immediately.
He sat down next to me and we started talking.
A real DIY-er who builds horns and SET amps. He used primarily vintage drivers (GPA/Altec, Supravox etc.).
He turned out to know member docali and - before leaving, advised me to visit a specific room. That room was already on the top of my list.
Although I have come across a few positive reviews online - which probably says something about the ears and the knowledge of those reviewers, we considered the demos primarily as a source of brand damage and a waste of time and money.
When we entered the room, music was playing and I immediately said to the guy from Audio Note (factory employee): "They gave you one of the worst rooms." He acknowledged that the acoustics were indeed appalling and demonstrated this with a handclap.
I was curious about the 2a3 monoblocks that are rarely used for demos.
The bass was boomy, including several modes and the reflections/reverberance made it difficult to judge the mid/highs.
I urged the other 2 to focus on the direct sound as much as possible, to get a glimpse of the qualities.
My brother had already studied the setup beforehand and it was supposed to be 'copper based'. However, I did detect a typical characteristic that is perhaps best described as: extreme, somewhat unnatural, brightness/clarity.
So I asked the AN guy: "The AN-Es are copper wired, aren't they?".
His reply: "No, these have silver wiring and voice coils", which probably explained what I heard.
In addition, we received an excellent disquisition of the ways AN deals with gain structure and impedance.
No boring audiophile crap music was played in this room, but a great variety of good music, which is not always well recorded.
A German had bought some LPs which were played immediately.
He sat down next to me and we started talking.
A real DIY-er who builds horns and SET amps. He used primarily vintage drivers (GPA/Altec, Supravox etc.).
He turned out to know member docali and - before leaving, advised me to visit a specific room. That room was already on the top of my list.
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Maybe it was the high gloss poly finish on the cabinet that gave it an unnatural glare
There's much in this reply. Agree with many, if not all. Sub bass distortion has its harmonics generated in the mid bass, to complicate good mid bass replication further, but then we're talking indeed 110-120dB, listening position or not. Mid bass is also where many/most room interactions take place and the ear is more sensitive than the sub frequencies. So this complicates good playback further. This list goes on and the solutions are harder to find (as the title of this thread implies we ideally want less driver units and crossover points and less holes in the enclosures and not too big ones). The solition seems to be a dedicated mid range driver tuned to get that energy good enough at the listening place. That's a tough feat.
I have 2 instruments in my living room. One is a ukelele guitair which was given to me by my son in law from Indonesia. The other is a small Djembe. This Djembe has a diameter of around 14cm/5" and if you hit this thing hard, my body feels the kick it produces as well as the neighbours most likely thinking "what the hell just happened".
That diaphragma, and I'm guessing here, is moving around 7mm (1/5") peak to peak max momentarily.
That's ridiculous.
Despite the theory we discussed, which I absolutely agree with, I still find it hard to understand why this small thing produces so much sound pressure while hardly having any Sd and excursion capability. I'm not saying there are no other variables at play, can very well be, but I do think passive speakers won't be the best option to fight the technical problems. The only way 2 way will be doable, imho, is when a big horn is used with 2 12", 2 15", a 18" or 21" active, corrected and room eq. That's a lot of paths to take.
P.S. I am building a 2 ×12" and JBL CD this way, meaning I do think it's possible, carry on;-)
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I don't know why you think a small Cross sectional area is better than a Large one...The opposite is true, isn't it?....In this instance, look at the vent like the Active Radiator.....A vent is a Passive radiator, where the air piston is the size of the CSA that it couples to. It benefits from being larger, just like the Active Driver does. You may have to increase length to bring down Fb to desirable place... Increasing CSA of the vent, improves performance....Higher Direct energy, and Directivity...Less "excursion" of the air piston...(evidence being the chuffing of a smaller CSA vent for example)...essentially less distortion. Same thing happens when increasing the size of the Active Radiator. Both are essentially radiation masses from a certain CSA where more is better. A vent being more complex, in the unique coupling vs frequency
I am thinking more of the idea that when the sub signal pushes the diaphragm far enough....when mid range is being reproduced.....Now at, for example, 7mm instead of 1-2,mm....It is going to create midrange derived THD separate from the THD created from the sub signal. The distortion comes from being away from the center....So if the driver tries to do anything while being away from the center.....if its far enough, it going to increase the distortion of said signal.....Not just the THD from the signal causing the driver to leave so far away from center.
Lately I've been pondering how Pressure might affect the drivers Sound Quality. I asked on one of my favorite threads here
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...x-and-bl-x-for-mid-ranges.376164/post-7148531
Your Djembe is a vented enclosure. The hole at the bottom....its something like a Lever, trading force for distance...That might be the first time I've said that correctly lol. The distance increase happens in the way of vibrating pressure waves increasing distance of oscillations which in turn increase pressure (SPL) since frequency has not changed. Just like in the vented enclosure the woofer ( or Djembe head) only oscillates a little in comparison to the Air pistons resulting oscillations...at and near Fb.