Bill, I would agree with "efficiency", this has been shown, but "performance", to me, is a broader category for which I am not sure this is true.
The narrowing was true of my very early designs, but not later ones as I improved them.
It could be true that using active DSP allowed for a little lower Xover. I have never looked at this though.
I have done both active and passive and yes, it did go down substantially as time went on and I learned how to accomplish this.
If subwoofers are considered a third "way" then "no", no two way can get there. But for mains 2-way is probably ideal since even 2plus-way will still require subs. So to me we are only taking about mains and then the answer is "yes" 2-ways can do this.
"Sharing insights is ok and i appreciate it. Insisting that you are right about everything you say without checking is something else entirely.
"
This implies that I insist that my facts are correct without having any supporting data. This is entirely false and suggesting that I do that is insulting.
You must have misunderstood or the post is very old or I was only talking about loudspeakers, not electronics. I do not check low signal levels on loudspeakers because they are completely linear down there. Electronics is not. In a completely linear system it makes no difference what level one is using because it is always linear.
Phew - finally got through all the posts that I missed!!!
Post is 5 years old and we were talking the same thing as here - performance of two way loudspeaker with 15" midwoofer in regard to Mms. Here is the link to your post so you can see what have you written:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/260858-generic-mid-duty-driver-7.html#post4034489
You wrote that you do not do low level signal.
For loudspeakers low signal levels would not be an issue as it is in electronics where it is likely the most significant issue.
I'm not exactly sure why I thought that low signal levels might be an issue in loudspeakers. I've never seen this to be an issue. I did do a lot of testing on thermal modulation and could not find any effects that were clear. At any rate, today I would say that testing loudspeakers at low signal levels would be a waste of time.
I'm not exactly sure why I thought that low signal levels might be an issue in loudspeakers. I've never seen this to be an issue. I did do a lot of testing on thermal modulation and could not find any effects that were clear. At any rate, today I would say that testing loudspeakers at low signal levels would be a waste of time.
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MAins?
Subs?
Isn't it supposed to have two sound sources, as we have two ears?!
And those sound sources aren't supposed to be placed in ambient, freestanding and with quasi-point source behaviour?!
The perception of stereo bass has always been controversial. My system is "semi" stereo in the bass in that the mains are left stereo, but the subs are mono. Since all play simultaneously is this stereo or mono? Probably a mix of both.
Clearly the smaller the room the less likely one can differentiate mono from stereo at LFs. We did tests in cars and did not find any differences. In small home rooms, I also have my doubts. Large venues will be completely different of course.
"And those sound sources aren't supposed to be placed in ambient, freestanding and with quasi-point source behaviour?!" - not sure what this means.
Clearly the smaller the room the less likely one can differentiate mono from stereo at LFs. We did tests in cars and did not find any differences. In small home rooms, I also have my doubts. Large venues will be completely different of course.
"And those sound sources aren't supposed to be placed in ambient, freestanding and with quasi-point source behaviour?!" - not sure what this means.
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This is interesting post for me. What sort of eq? Passively or actively? Any specifics as to equipment used for these tests?
From my listening experiences so far, my ears don’t enjoy titanium diaphragms doing highs. But if I can make a cheap b&c driver sound like a pricey beryllium, that would be wonderful. In saying that, I haven’t completely enjoyed TAD CD drivers doing highs either (except for the et-703 tweeter).
Cheers!
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Where could i find the details about that study ? Things like - listeners age, their hearing performance, are they randomly picked people, industry pros or audiophiles, were they trained.. stuff like that.
Thanks
From my experience (as limited as it might be in comparison to others), the equipment used may not be of a high enough standard to actually bring out the differences in loudspeaker components. Just to give an example, I’ve attended gatherings where they are using things like Behringer and DBX dsp with smsp power supplies, cheap speaker wire, etc. Not that I could hear ‘no differences’, but they certainly were masked.
Blanket statements like smps and cheap speaker wire do not really help the case. Unless the equipment is proven measured faulty it has no bearing on sound quality. The measured performance of the hardware is the only thing that matters. Good and bad equipment can be engineered with any topology whether smps or linear. Let's not forget sighted vs blind tests
.I'd be more incline to believe the results outlined by Dr. Geddes as he knows how to setup experiments with proper equipment. While the experimental results may not be the final word on the subject it hints that the differences in those 2 drivers subjective quality are very very close. Not sure what there is to disagree with here.
Agreed if it was statistically proven in blind testing, otherwise our minds are playing tricks on us. I don't have enough $$$ to trust my brain doing my ears job .
P.S. I'm the guy who can't hear the difference of most things when radiation pattern and frequency response are very close to each other.
.P.S. I'm the guy who can't hear the difference of most things when radiation pattern and frequency response are very close to each other
.
Actually, the problem of loudspeaker behavior at low levels is is scarcely studied and practically there is no papers on the topic. At least, I have no found systematic study when I was interested on the problem. However, I have found several interested articles. I remember interesting experimental study presented at the AES convention 126 by I.Djurek, A.Petosic and D.Djurek. The authors investigated the cone displacement at different levels and how suspension and spider influences it. Unexpectedly to me, they have observed, that at low signal levels (<1mA) the spider was unable to move due to residual strains and viscoelastic properties of the spider material. Thus, your assumption is not baseless. It seems, that under a certain conditions certain loudspeakers, actually, can behave quite complicated when they are driven by low dynamically changing signals
.
The two driver sets had subtle changes to the crossover components as both were passive.
Equipment? Electronics? That doesn't matter.
It’s all good.
It’s the fine subtleties in reproduced notes/voices that excites me most. Something that I find high efficiency speakers (ie horns with compression drivers. Field coils especially) do exceptionally well in. Unfortunately (for me), it doesn’t seem to be easily measurable (not by a freq response sweep anyway).
Hopefully the OP is more along the lines with the ‘measurements tell all’ camp. Much $$$ to be saved this way
It’s the fine subtleties in reproduced notes/voices that excites me most. Something that I find high efficiency speakers (ie horns with compression drivers. Field coils especially) do exceptionally well in. Unfortunately (for me), it doesn’t seem to be easily measurable (not by a freq response sweep anyway).
Hopefully the OP is more along the lines with the ‘measurements tell all’ camp. Much $$$ to be saved this way
You can't. You'll just have to take my word for it. It was done the best two PhDs could do, one being a psychoacoustic and experimentation expert (not me!)
Ps. I’m the type of guy who sticks with linear power supplies with big transformers and ‘audiophile’ capacitors
Figures.
Unexpectedly to me, they have observed, that at low signal levels (<1mA) the spider was unable to move due to residual strains and viscoelastic properties of the spider material. Thus, your assumption is not baseless. It seems, that under a certain conditions certain loudspeakers, actually, can behave quite complicated when they are driven by low dynamically changing signals
This is interesting. Do you know what kind of driver this was? It sure seems like those heavy duty silicone damped spiders used in prosound speakers would need more drive level to reach normal working parameters.
Makes these seem more interesting.
MAIN DESIGN PRINCIPLES | ILUMNIA SPEAKERS
Said about horns...
"...But when you get a horn system set up right, the sound quality is amazing. The most obvious advantage is in the dynamic range and transient response of the horns. For me, the emotional impact of recorded music is in the dynamics. Most speakers just do not produce realistic dynamic constrasts. Horns do, and they do so with ease. They also excel in low distortion. The sound seems unusually clean even at high levels..."
"One of the major challenges in setting up a horn system is finding an amplifier which will work with the horns. High power solid state amplifiers sound best when mated to inefficient speakers. With horn speakers they tend to sound really awful. The efficiency of horns is so high that your average big hog solid state amp never really gets turned on. Likewise, big tube amps using banks of 6550s just don't sound that clean when operated in the milliwatt power range. Horns work best with low power tube amps."
Greg Boynton, "What about horns", Sound Practices Vol.1, #1
"At equal acoustic outputs, as compared to conventional dynamic or electrostatic loudspeakers, horns offer a dramatic increase in dynamic capability, image size, and presence. Harmonic distortion drops to a quarter of the value found in audiophile direct radiator systems. In contrast, most direct radiators severely compress dynamic contrasts and reduce image size to the proportions of a symphony on a table-top. These are bothsevere distortions for which there are no measurements. More importantly, these are distortions which reduce the fun and excitement of music.
When reproduced music lacks weight and body, when sudden transients fail to startle, and the lead singer is only two feet tall, what's left? Detail? Transparency? Tonal balance?
People often say that most horns "sound like horns" and are therefore "disqualified from audiophile consideration". To me, a 90% reduction in image size is a gross distortion, but owners of minimonitors talk endlessly about imaging and transient response. But without weight and body, the transients fail to startle and lose most of their emotional power.
A system capable of reproducing an enormous soundstage, that showcases dynamic contrasts, and presents music with realistic presence, weight and body will never fail to excite and arouse. These are the traits that the triode/horn systems use to communicate. These are the traits that stimulate our body and unconscious mind..."
Herbert E. Reichert, "The Science of Beauty: Audio Culture in the Nineties", Positive Feedback (The Journal of the Oregon Triode Society) Vol.5, #1
"...If you have only heard nasty horns, you might find it hard to believe that a good horn system can be the best speaker PERIOD."
Herbert E. Reichert, "Casual Reactions", Sound Practices, Vol.1, #4
"...If you don't think a speaker can have explosive dynamics, wall-to-wall imaging, a seamless midrange that just won't quit, incredibly low distortion, a sweet, airy top end, and do all this without a hint of strain, you just haven't driven a good horn system lately!"
Jeff Markwart and John Tucker, "Altec Voice of the Theater speakers for Hi-Fi", Sound Practices Vol.1, #4
"...Once horn speakers get in your blood nothing else will do. They put you IN the music in a way other types of speakers rarely do."
Paul Eizik, letter to "Readers' Forum", Sound Practices Vol.2, #1
"...Horns have a very forward presentation. Back in the Seventies, "too forward" was a common criticism of speakers. What people were looking for was that backward sound, I guess.
The illusion horns provide is a "they are here" sound rather than the old "you are there" illusion. That is, the sound is so dynamic and alive that it sounds like the music is going on IN YOUR ROOM."
Joe Roberts, "Reconsider Baby - The Promise of Horns in the Contemporary Situation", Sound Practices Vol.2, #3
"The higher the efficiency of a loudspeaker, the lower the distortion. In the absence of weight-loading, the distortion may be expected to be inversely as the square of the efficiency. In the case of weighted diaphragms, the major penalties are the power required to accelerate the extra weight and the resulting looseness of coupling between the electrical power and the air being moved. Transient response has to do with peak power output available with linearity (freedom from amplitude distortion) and the ability of the speaker to produce sound pressures proportional to applied instantaneous power.
Much effort has been expended to reduce weight of moving parts such as the diaphragm, and so forth - even to the extent of using aluminum ribbon voice coils instead of copper. There is seen to be a premium placed on high efficiency. This significantly applies not only to speakers but to amplifiers.
High efficiency results in reduced distortion in the speaker and less demand on the amplifier."
Paul W. Klipsch, "Speaker Power", Audio, October 1961
"The existence of subharmonics in direct radiator loudspeakers is well known. However, in horn loudspeakers the diaphragms are relatively small and quite rigid. Consequently, the conditions for the production of subharmonics is not particularly favorable."
Harry F. Olson, "Elements of Acoustical Engineering", Chapter 7 - "Horn Loudspeakers"
"As far as the ear can tell, consistently clean and spacious bass can be reproduced only by a driver unit coupled to a horn-type acoustic transformer..."
"Toneburst", "Low-cost Horn Loudspeaker System - Details of successful experiments", Wireless World, May 1974
"Although full-range horn systems are used today only by a small number of enthusiasts, most experts are unanimous in acclaiming their virtues as loudspeaker enclosures, especially their high degree of realism and "presence".
Jack Dinsdale, "Horn Loudspeaker Design", Part I, Wireless World, March 1974
"The advantages of horn-loaded systems lie in the fact that it is possible in such systems to obtain relatively distortion-free output at the low frequencies because of the small motions of the diaphragm even when large amounts of acoustic power are realized. Secondly, the high efficiency of the horn-loaded systems means, of course, that for a given power output the system does not have to be driven as hard electrically as the direct radiator baffle. This naturally results in more conservative use of amplifier power with consequently reduced amplifier distortion and better linearity of response during peak bursts of power."
Abraham B. Cohen, "Hi-Fi Loudspeakers and Enclosures", Chapter 11 "Horn-Type Enclosures"
"In every case - woofer, squawker, tweeter - the horn offers "cleaner" sound at all practical levels of sound pressure output. Indeed the horn is about the only means for delivering extremely high sound pressure levels with reasonably low distortion."
"A crude analogy of the direct radiator loudspeaker would be a "baffled" piston on the surface of a lake. It could agitate the waters but it would not be much of a pump. But put a cylinder around the piston, and it becomes capable of lifting the water. This is analogous to the driver unit coupled to a horn. The cone is forced to work at higher pressures with lower velocity.
Another analogy is the gear ratio of the automobile which transforms the "low impedance" engine - low torque, high speed - to the "high impedance" drive wheels - high torque, low speed. The direct radiator speaker is a low impedance device - low pressure, high velocity. The gear box is an impedance transformer. The horn acts as a transformer to increase the pressure and reduce the motion of the driving system."
"Modulation distortion is directly affected by the amplitude of diaphragm motion, and would thus be greatly reduced by horn loading."
Paul W. Klipsch, "Loudspeaker Performance", Wireless World, February 1970
"...Another great advantage of horn loading is that it results in heavy damping of the cone movement and consequent elimination of resonances."
H.J.F. Crabbe, "Design for a Folded Corner Horn", Wireless World, February 1958
"A small diaphragm may be designed to be extremely rigid and to move as a piston up to frequencies much higher than can be achieved with a large paper cone; as a result, the variations in sound output over the frequency range will be much reduced. A properly designed horn presents a resistive load to the diaphragm that is high and constant over a wide frequency range and down to a much lower frequency than is possible with a direct radiator speaker. Transient oscillations of the diaphragm are thus largely damped, and this gives the reproduction from a properly designed horn a solidity and body unequalled by any type of direct radiator speaker."
James Moir, "High Quality Sound Reproduction"
"These speakers' high efficiency and dynamic range provide an impact and realism to percussive sounds I haven't heard in many nonhorn systems."
Rick Steiner, "A Back-Loaded Wall-Horn Speaker", Speaker Builder 4/91
"...The model proved highly successful and gave good correlation with measured results, which used a Community M4 as a signal source (capable of producing signals with less than 1% harmonic distortion, even at 150 dB).
Philip Newell and Keith Holland, "Round the Horn", Studio Sound, March 1994
"The use of horn-loading provides, I believe, the best acoustic coupling yet devised, with superior transient response, smoother frequency response, and high efficiency, while the configuration improves the polar response of the unit."
James Nicholson, "A High Efficiency Mid & High Range Horn", The Audio Amateur
"I first became acquainted with horns when I heard a fellow engineer's home built system in 1977. I was literally blown away by the realistic dynamics of the system and set about learning all I could about horn design..."
Dr. Bruce Edgar, letter to "Readers' Forum", Sound Practices, Vol.1, #2
Lack of dynamic compression, presence of dynamic contrast, explosive dynamics, dynamic range, freedom from AM distortion etc, etc... All of that should result in some very honest signal, in terms of spl......spl across the spectrum, which should turn into some very honest adjustments of the eq during mix/mastering.
My theory anyway. I fell in love with horns after hearing some bjork over some altec clones. I auditioned as many different loud speakers that I could find in the area and nothing else compared...
"...But when you get a horn system set up right, the sound quality is amazing. The most obvious advantage is in the dynamic range and transient response of the horns. For me, the emotional impact of recorded music is in the dynamics. Most speakers just do not produce realistic dynamic constrasts. Horns do, and they do so with ease. They also excel in low distortion. The sound seems unusually clean even at high levels..."
"One of the major challenges in setting up a horn system is finding an amplifier which will work with the horns. High power solid state amplifiers sound best when mated to inefficient speakers. With horn speakers they tend to sound really awful. The efficiency of horns is so high that your average big hog solid state amp never really gets turned on. Likewise, big tube amps using banks of 6550s just don't sound that clean when operated in the milliwatt power range. Horns work best with low power tube amps."
Greg Boynton, "What about horns", Sound Practices Vol.1, #1
"At equal acoustic outputs, as compared to conventional dynamic or electrostatic loudspeakers, horns offer a dramatic increase in dynamic capability, image size, and presence. Harmonic distortion drops to a quarter of the value found in audiophile direct radiator systems. In contrast, most direct radiators severely compress dynamic contrasts and reduce image size to the proportions of a symphony on a table-top. These are bothsevere distortions for which there are no measurements. More importantly, these are distortions which reduce the fun and excitement of music.
When reproduced music lacks weight and body, when sudden transients fail to startle, and the lead singer is only two feet tall, what's left? Detail? Transparency? Tonal balance?
People often say that most horns "sound like horns" and are therefore "disqualified from audiophile consideration". To me, a 90% reduction in image size is a gross distortion, but owners of minimonitors talk endlessly about imaging and transient response. But without weight and body, the transients fail to startle and lose most of their emotional power.
A system capable of reproducing an enormous soundstage, that showcases dynamic contrasts, and presents music with realistic presence, weight and body will never fail to excite and arouse. These are the traits that the triode/horn systems use to communicate. These are the traits that stimulate our body and unconscious mind..."
Herbert E. Reichert, "The Science of Beauty: Audio Culture in the Nineties", Positive Feedback (The Journal of the Oregon Triode Society) Vol.5, #1
"...If you have only heard nasty horns, you might find it hard to believe that a good horn system can be the best speaker PERIOD."
Herbert E. Reichert, "Casual Reactions", Sound Practices, Vol.1, #4
"...If you don't think a speaker can have explosive dynamics, wall-to-wall imaging, a seamless midrange that just won't quit, incredibly low distortion, a sweet, airy top end, and do all this without a hint of strain, you just haven't driven a good horn system lately!"
Jeff Markwart and John Tucker, "Altec Voice of the Theater speakers for Hi-Fi", Sound Practices Vol.1, #4
"...Once horn speakers get in your blood nothing else will do. They put you IN the music in a way other types of speakers rarely do."
Paul Eizik, letter to "Readers' Forum", Sound Practices Vol.2, #1
"...Horns have a very forward presentation. Back in the Seventies, "too forward" was a common criticism of speakers. What people were looking for was that backward sound, I guess.
The illusion horns provide is a "they are here" sound rather than the old "you are there" illusion. That is, the sound is so dynamic and alive that it sounds like the music is going on IN YOUR ROOM."
Joe Roberts, "Reconsider Baby - The Promise of Horns in the Contemporary Situation", Sound Practices Vol.2, #3
"The higher the efficiency of a loudspeaker, the lower the distortion. In the absence of weight-loading, the distortion may be expected to be inversely as the square of the efficiency. In the case of weighted diaphragms, the major penalties are the power required to accelerate the extra weight and the resulting looseness of coupling between the electrical power and the air being moved. Transient response has to do with peak power output available with linearity (freedom from amplitude distortion) and the ability of the speaker to produce sound pressures proportional to applied instantaneous power.
Much effort has been expended to reduce weight of moving parts such as the diaphragm, and so forth - even to the extent of using aluminum ribbon voice coils instead of copper. There is seen to be a premium placed on high efficiency. This significantly applies not only to speakers but to amplifiers.
High efficiency results in reduced distortion in the speaker and less demand on the amplifier."
Paul W. Klipsch, "Speaker Power", Audio, October 1961
"The existence of subharmonics in direct radiator loudspeakers is well known. However, in horn loudspeakers the diaphragms are relatively small and quite rigid. Consequently, the conditions for the production of subharmonics is not particularly favorable."
Harry F. Olson, "Elements of Acoustical Engineering", Chapter 7 - "Horn Loudspeakers"
"As far as the ear can tell, consistently clean and spacious bass can be reproduced only by a driver unit coupled to a horn-type acoustic transformer..."
"Toneburst", "Low-cost Horn Loudspeaker System - Details of successful experiments", Wireless World, May 1974
"Although full-range horn systems are used today only by a small number of enthusiasts, most experts are unanimous in acclaiming their virtues as loudspeaker enclosures, especially their high degree of realism and "presence".
Jack Dinsdale, "Horn Loudspeaker Design", Part I, Wireless World, March 1974
"The advantages of horn-loaded systems lie in the fact that it is possible in such systems to obtain relatively distortion-free output at the low frequencies because of the small motions of the diaphragm even when large amounts of acoustic power are realized. Secondly, the high efficiency of the horn-loaded systems means, of course, that for a given power output the system does not have to be driven as hard electrically as the direct radiator baffle. This naturally results in more conservative use of amplifier power with consequently reduced amplifier distortion and better linearity of response during peak bursts of power."
Abraham B. Cohen, "Hi-Fi Loudspeakers and Enclosures", Chapter 11 "Horn-Type Enclosures"
"In every case - woofer, squawker, tweeter - the horn offers "cleaner" sound at all practical levels of sound pressure output. Indeed the horn is about the only means for delivering extremely high sound pressure levels with reasonably low distortion."
"A crude analogy of the direct radiator loudspeaker would be a "baffled" piston on the surface of a lake. It could agitate the waters but it would not be much of a pump. But put a cylinder around the piston, and it becomes capable of lifting the water. This is analogous to the driver unit coupled to a horn. The cone is forced to work at higher pressures with lower velocity.
Another analogy is the gear ratio of the automobile which transforms the "low impedance" engine - low torque, high speed - to the "high impedance" drive wheels - high torque, low speed. The direct radiator speaker is a low impedance device - low pressure, high velocity. The gear box is an impedance transformer. The horn acts as a transformer to increase the pressure and reduce the motion of the driving system."
"Modulation distortion is directly affected by the amplitude of diaphragm motion, and would thus be greatly reduced by horn loading."
Paul W. Klipsch, "Loudspeaker Performance", Wireless World, February 1970
"...Another great advantage of horn loading is that it results in heavy damping of the cone movement and consequent elimination of resonances."
H.J.F. Crabbe, "Design for a Folded Corner Horn", Wireless World, February 1958
"A small diaphragm may be designed to be extremely rigid and to move as a piston up to frequencies much higher than can be achieved with a large paper cone; as a result, the variations in sound output over the frequency range will be much reduced. A properly designed horn presents a resistive load to the diaphragm that is high and constant over a wide frequency range and down to a much lower frequency than is possible with a direct radiator speaker. Transient oscillations of the diaphragm are thus largely damped, and this gives the reproduction from a properly designed horn a solidity and body unequalled by any type of direct radiator speaker."
James Moir, "High Quality Sound Reproduction"
"These speakers' high efficiency and dynamic range provide an impact and realism to percussive sounds I haven't heard in many nonhorn systems."
Rick Steiner, "A Back-Loaded Wall-Horn Speaker", Speaker Builder 4/91
"...The model proved highly successful and gave good correlation with measured results, which used a Community M4 as a signal source (capable of producing signals with less than 1% harmonic distortion, even at 150 dB).
Philip Newell and Keith Holland, "Round the Horn", Studio Sound, March 1994
"The use of horn-loading provides, I believe, the best acoustic coupling yet devised, with superior transient response, smoother frequency response, and high efficiency, while the configuration improves the polar response of the unit."
James Nicholson, "A High Efficiency Mid & High Range Horn", The Audio Amateur
"I first became acquainted with horns when I heard a fellow engineer's home built system in 1977. I was literally blown away by the realistic dynamics of the system and set about learning all I could about horn design..."
Dr. Bruce Edgar, letter to "Readers' Forum", Sound Practices, Vol.1, #2
Lack of dynamic compression, presence of dynamic contrast, explosive dynamics, dynamic range, freedom from AM distortion etc, etc... All of that should result in some very honest signal, in terms of spl......spl across the spectrum, which should turn into some very honest adjustments of the eq during mix/mastering.
My theory anyway. I fell in love with horns after hearing some bjork over some altec clones. I auditioned as many different loud speakers that I could find in the area and nothing else compared...
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I don't know what you are trying to say, can you elaborate? Are you disagreeing with the work of Beers and Belar, and the content of the JAES Vol 29, no 5 of May 1981?