Is full range what I'm looking for?

[burgunder]

I don't have any experience with fullrange speakers but I think the key is to use them in the nearfield, at 1m or closer. I plan to build a pair of Tabaqs for that purpose ie. as a giant pair of headphones.

 

[cumbb]

;-)
Tzzzz.-)
Where are YOUR experiences;-? You do copy the common simple opinions. But we are here: "by fanatics, for fanatics"-)
;-)

 

[Charles Darwin]

I plan a cube 50 x 50 x 50 cm. On stands like shown. To look very pretty in my mind,-)

A cube is the worst of all possible cabinet shapes.
Egg shape the best.

 

[cumbb]

An unfilled, undamped, labil built cube is a problem. Yes,-)
An unfilled, undamped, labil built egg shape is a problem. Yes,-)

Do not use the casing for mechanical amp. The most do. That sounds everytime ugly.
Do not build a labil high-mass casing. The most do. That sounds everytime ugly.
Do not build in the chassis unclamped. The most do, everybody does. That sounds everytime ugly.
Do not build in un-decoupled. The most do, eberybody does. That sounds everytime ugly.
Do not use un-modified drivers. The most do. That sounds everytime ugly.
Do not ...
,-)

 

[chrisb]

cumbb - huh ^3

do not read forum posts - That makes everytime confuzed ?

 

[planet10]

You actually want a sphere for the least reflections/diffractions. That's the best shape for an enclosure.

For the outside of the enclosure. For the inside it is really not good.

Probably the best shape is similar to that developed by B&W for their top-of-the-line speakers.

dave

 

[planet10]

If you don't want speakers that:

- play reasonably loud
- have some real bass
- distort as little as possible

Add a woofer & LP the FR and you can.

- create a large sweet spot for listening,

The FRs i listen to seem to suffer little from that.

dave

 

[chrisb]

If you don't want speakers that:

- play reasonably loud
- have some real bass
- distort as little as possible
- create a large sweet spot for listening,

then full range speakers are what you want.

If you:
- don't need to meet some some unspecified metric of "reasonably loud"
- can accept that many small 2-way systems may not have "real bass" either, and would still need help of subwoofers
- can take the time to find and audition a range of local DIY speaker build of all types
- temper your assessment of what you read with what you hear
- don't have the physical room or financial wherewithal to afford the larger systems that you might very much like the sound of

then perhaps full range speakers are a viable alternative to investigate

 

[cumbb]

The most mistake "bass" and rumbling,-) To reproduce clean, clear deeps is very very expensive. The common (very) big and (very) costly floorstanding-wooden-material-multiways, shown on trade shows or in glossy journals, do not,-!

 

[chrisb]

While mostly likely OT for a Full-Range forum discussion - which designs /models do, pray tell?

 

[tipex]

Hello,

Thank you so much for all the answers🙂

I see plenty of different opinions here... That's cool ! 😉

I've always listened to multi-way speakers, but I've never listened to a true full range. So I think I'm going to go for that and I'll give it a try, to see (hear) what it is like.
All in all, if the final result doesn't convince me, I suppose it will be always possible to place a tweeter or a sub next to the FR 🙄

I've read some reviews about the Fostex FF165WK and FF225WK. All opinions agree that the FF225WK really needs a tweeter, and some opinions say that the FF165WK needs a tweeter too.

I've also read really good reviews (the user "chrisb" recommends it in this thread too) on the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3.Some people say that it has more bass than the Fostex FF165WK.

But when you look at the graphs, theoretically the FF165WK has more bass.
Looking at the Fostex's graphs also, those FR drivers wouldn't need a tweeter, although most users finds it really necessary...

That leads me to think that maybe they're not really honest on their measurements...🙁

Here in Europe the Alpair 10.3 is a 50% more expensive than the Fostex FF165WK. Is it worth it?

Thanks !

 

[cumbb]

,-)
Do not honest in "looking"-measurement of not-complexes (signals) if you want do "listen"-measure super-complexes (signals) - all the/your time,-)
My mind: People; fullrange; lots mid-drivers too,-) do NOT need tweeters, or subs, but cleaner (not a kind of "taste"-) amps and sources and rooms and better casings and better, principle-regarded build-in. And: The most never had, have listened and will never listen a clean amp. I do not doubt,-)

"Depths", general soundstage: Compared stonewall/concrete, any alu, stiff synthetics and (however built, however formed, however stiffed and damped) wooden-material: NO chance to get a clean tone, a clean soundstage with wooden-material. Not "depths, not "mids", not "highs" (you can build in a diamond tweeter in a wooden crate and you will listen a wooden crate with a diamond tweeter,-) "Depths" too. Better to look for clean "depths" than for "deep" "depths"-) To get both is very seldom - you could concrete or stonewall a big horn or use a good dipol or, may be, a vey good damped "closed" (closed, bp, br ...) not-big not-wooden-material casing. I would never use a separate sub, separate drivers, separate amps. Never. "More bass" = bigger fullrange or more same fullrange. My suggest.
While using wooden-material for casing you have to counter the ugly, grey, flat, rumbling, roaring, courtained, fuzzy character: decouple and clamp the drivers per metal-material or deccouple per rubber or string or others. And no lace (except laqueured lace) and no big diameters of wires. And no tall fronts, forms - except arrays (no passive sources of sound) - or do cover the fronts, sides too. And more ... That all I suggest generally,-)
Just my mind, my experienses,-) And my hint to look for "designs/models"-)
And: cleanness (of sound) is not a sort of "taste"-)

 

[giantstairs]

Hello Tipex,
Owning both (as well as a bunch of other full range drivers) I can heartily recommend the Alpair 10.3 over the FF165wk, unless you own or plan to build a First watt F1, F2, or F3 or a nice tube amp. In my experience, with a solid state amp, chipamp, or class d the Alpair has more, and better bass.

As a bonus it is also significantly cheaper here in Europe! 😉

Excellent customer service as well!

 

[tipex]

,-)
Do not honest in "looking"-measurement of not-complexes (signals) if you want do "listen"-measure super-complexes (signals) - all the/your time,-)
My mind: People; fullrange; lots mid-drivers too,-) do NOT need tweeters, or subs, but cleaner (not a kind of "taste"-) amps and sources and rooms and better casings and better, principle-regarded build-in. And: The most never had, have listened and will never listen a clean amp. I do not doubt,-)

"Depths", general soundstage: Compared stonewall/concrete, any alu, stiff synthetics and (however built, however formed, however stiffed and damped) wooden-material: NO chance to get a clean tone, a clean soundstage with wooden-material. Not "depths, not "mids", not "highs" (you can build in a diamond tweeter in a wooden crate and you will listen a wooden crate with a diamond tweeter,-) "Depths" too. Better to look for clean "depths" than for "deep" "depths"-) To get both is very seldom - you could concrete or stonewall a big horn or use a good dipol or, may be, a vey good damped "closed" (closed, bp, br ...) not-big not-wooden-material casing. I would never use a separate sub, separate drivers, separate amps. Never. "More bass" = bigger fullrange or more same fullrange. My suggest.
While using wooden-material for casing you have to counter the ugly, grey, flat, rumbling, roaring, courtained, fuzzy character: decouple and clamp the drivers per metal-material or deccouple per rubber or string or others. And no lace (except laqueured lace) and no big diameters of wires. And no tall fronts, forms - except arrays (no passive sources of sound) - or do cover the fronts, sides too. And more ... That all I suggest generally,-)
Just my mind, my experienses,-) And my hint to look for "designs/models"-)
And: cleanness (of sound) is not a sort of "taste"-)

Do you mean that wood is not a good material to build speakers?😕

Hello Tipex,
Owning both (as well as a bunch of other full range drivers) I can heartily recommend the Alpair 10.3 over the FF165wk, unless you own or plan to build a First watt F1, F2, or F3 or a nice tube amp. In my experience, with a solid state amp, chipamp, or class d the Alpair has more, and better bass.

As a bonus it is also significantly cheaper here in Europe! 😉

Excellent customer service as well!

Wowowow you made my day!😀
Between the 10.3 Grey and Gold versions, is there any difference in sound?
Why they don't do well with tube amps?

 

[giantstairs]

Do you mean that wood is not a good material to build speakers?😕



Wowowow you made my day!😀
Between the 10.3 Grey and Gold versions, is there any difference in sound?
Why they don't do well with tube amps?

No difference.

I never said they won't do well with tubes amps, just they don't NEED them or current sources to sound good as is the case of the FF165wk, in my experience.

In other words they sound really good with all amps I've tried and excellent with several, such as the F2, gainclone and Amp Camp amp. I do not have any tube amps at the moment... but I'm sure others could chime in about particular good matches.

 

[Godzilla]

Whenever I look at measurements nowadays in my mind I imagine all the peaks and dips as much worse than indicated on the charts. Not to knock Fostex (because I think many of their drivers have merit) but they certainly do smooth their frequency response measurements.

 

[zman01]

Hi tipex,

Copper and Grey cones are sound-wise the same. From experience with the Alpair 10.3, they work fine with tube amps, Class-D, and a chip amp that I tried them with. What you will like more/less depends on your listening choices and taste.

Just a word of caution, single small-medium sized full-range wide-band drivers do not do very well with more complex/noisier genres i.e. rock/metal.

 

[chrisb]

Is it just me, or does every new post by cumbb take me deeper into late 70's hallucinogenic flashback territory? Not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly not the most coherent modality in which to record discussions of technical matters for posterity's sake - the words may make sense and even have a poetic flow when spoken , but when read back later .... Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, what was that?

As for the relative sonic merits of the FF165WK vs Alpair10.3 or P - I've heard all three on amps from EL34 SE, EL84P/P pentode, Nelson Pass ACA SE, two or three low power digitals, and a Onkyo 7.1 Surround receiver. The Fostex has the advantage of higher sensitivity which can be a winning factor if limited to less that 5 watts SE / Class A, and also has a more forward presentation, but otherwise I prefer the Alpair. I''m personally using a trio of 10P for the front row of a small HT set-up.

 

[Cal Weldon]

Does the 165 suffer from the same soft high end as the 125 does? That was what I found missing in the Fostex.

 

[chrisb]

If that's your take on those two models, then either 85 or 105 FF-WK drivers, or the CHR70. Pluvia7 or A10.3 might be better candidates.

You'll likely have opportunity to suss that out for yourself in August.