Thanks SI,
But did he reach a conclusion?
sorry for the stuttering... don't how that is happening... too many windows open maybe -
EDIT: Stutter post removed by mod.
But did he reach a conclusion?
sorry for the stuttering... don't how that is happening... too many windows open maybe -
EDIT: Stutter post removed by mod.
That IS a conclusion. Cable differences are sometimes audible, and when demonstrated to be so, differences are due to well-understood phenomena. If someone thinks there's additional factors, they have not yet demonstrated this.
Appart from the metal involved, I think there are also a number of other properties of a cable wich could possible have bearing on how it conducts, such as guage, surface area I.e. stranded verses solid, inductance....
Surely by now if there was any science to it, there ought to have been reasonably clear guidlines as to which combinations would deliver best performance under diffirent conditions.
Surely by now if there was any science to it, there ought to have been reasonably clear guidlines as to which combinations would deliver best performance under diffirent conditions.
Pay link to the one related Greiner paper I can find so far:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3987
The abstract doesn't mention listening tests. Anyone know if they were part of Greiner's investigation?
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3987
The abstract doesn't mention listening tests. Anyone know if they were part of Greiner's investigation?
At least for interconnects it's not really clear if those guidlines do not already exists. Most of the premier cable manufacturers use very similar construction.
Mostly silver of high to super high purity, some annealing or casting process claimed to reduce crystal structures, almost universally either Teflon or foamed Teflon as an insulator and the use of special RCA connectors. Wire guages and the number of wires do vary and the use of outer shields while desireable seem to be shuned by many cable makers as making more problems than they solve.
Since most agree that materials cost does not by itself justify the high prices for many exotics, one could perhaps understand manufacturers wanting to keep certain details a secret.
As has been posted previously, it seems the general consensus is that well known name brands make cables where the more expensive models in the line up sound better. These people must have some fairly good knowledge of what does and doesn't work and are able to apply it in stages and charge proportionally.
sagarverma said:
Still me....still a long time ago.
I have friends visiting in Paksitan attending a wedding. Their son Ramish and my son are in the same class at school.
Is that u ....and I thought you were a lion. 😉
Anyway back to inter-connects. If someone would simply relate a perceived difference with an objective measurement I would (and maybe others) would listen. Can you imagine an assignment or thesis submitted with "I can tell you for sure I heard a difference" without research backed by scientific principles and measurements.
It would fail.
How's the battle going, Sy?
I like Hermanv's posts best. They sound better than than the others, especially those of the "it would fail" enthusiasts.
I like Hermanv's posts best. They sound better than than the others, especially those of the "it would fail" enthusiasts.
And Curmudgeon's post #108 .... a very fine piece of work. Curmudgeon, my experiences ("what are those?") tend the direction of your observation that metallic junction and dielectric absorption effects probably account for most of the more grating sonic differences between cables. DA does nasty things to an audio signal. See relevant attached measurements I took just today.
Attachments
Some random points. First, remember that the thread was titled "Interconnect cables!" Lies and myths!, so there need be no pretense that an open and honest discussion was being elicited. It was trolling, or noting what a wide net was cast, trawling.
Blindfolds are used primarily in wine tasting competitions; no critic uses a blindfold when preparing to write that cinchona bark notes are present. Nor do food critics use blindfolds. ("See that guy wearing a blindfold and bib? He must be a food critic!"😉
Since it is traditional in such threads to demand research, I demand, yes, demand research into the hearing of those unfortunates who cannot hear cable differences. What differences in speakers, electronics, and capacitors can or cannot they hear? (More seriously, the sounds of cables are very much like the sounds of capacitors.) At the very least, publish the details of the systems used to determine that the listener cannot hear a difference.
WireWorld at one point designed and had a small production run of AB switches; a quite fancy bypass switch, so they could test with the cable in or out of the ciruit. They use it for their development evaluation.
And remember, it is a hobby, and who indeed would be so rude as to tell someone else how to enjoy their hobby?
EDIT: LOL Serengeti; I made one of those myself recently. Vampire Cast Copper, "Magnet Wire" 4 strands, 2 " braid, Vampire high copper content connectors, Cardas solder, no additional insulation, and it was pretty grainy. I do not know why; not DA, as the insulation is very thin, and it lacked the soft, slightly smeared sound that I got from a cable where DA was clearly the issue. I let the solder melt back the insulation when I soldered; maybe should have scraped?
Blindfolds are used primarily in wine tasting competitions; no critic uses a blindfold when preparing to write that cinchona bark notes are present. Nor do food critics use blindfolds. ("See that guy wearing a blindfold and bib? He must be a food critic!"😉
Since it is traditional in such threads to demand research, I demand, yes, demand research into the hearing of those unfortunates who cannot hear cable differences. What differences in speakers, electronics, and capacitors can or cannot they hear? (More seriously, the sounds of cables are very much like the sounds of capacitors.) At the very least, publish the details of the systems used to determine that the listener cannot hear a difference.
WireWorld at one point designed and had a small production run of AB switches; a quite fancy bypass switch, so they could test with the cable in or out of the ciruit. They use it for their development evaluation.
And remember, it is a hobby, and who indeed would be so rude as to tell someone else how to enjoy their hobby?
EDIT: LOL Serengeti; I made one of those myself recently. Vampire Cast Copper, "Magnet Wire" 4 strands, 2 " braid, Vampire high copper content connectors, Cardas solder, no additional insulation, and it was pretty grainy. I do not know why; not DA, as the insulation is very thin, and it lacked the soft, slightly smeared sound that I got from a cable where DA was clearly the issue. I let the solder melt back the insulation when I soldered; maybe should have scraped?
mastertech said:
Ha ...true true ....Arts the only way to do Uni....and the bar (not law) o'course.
Cheers
I wonder if dielectric thickness is inversely correlated with DA effects .... further to this wondering, I wonder if DA isn't a quantum effect loosely analogous to the reflectivity of glass, which cycles between 4 and 16% depending on its thickness, a very mysterious effect for which there exists no explanation ("no explanation??" 😱 ). In his recent series of articles on the "sound" ("what's that?") of capacitors, Cyril Bateman found that DA effects were less measureable on higher voltage (ie, thicker dielectric) capacitors. Winding tension might have had something to do with this observation, but the effect was noticed on different dielectrics with, wouldn't you know, different elasticities.
Better how? Because it it the only metallic element that doesn't oxidize or corrode? Gold is not a better conductor than silver; in fact, gold is closer to aluminum than silver in terms of resistivity.Tony said:
Resisitivity in Ohm-centimeters-
---------------------_6
---- Silver=1.629 x 10
---Copper=1.692 "
------Gold=2.440 "
-Aluminum=2.828 "
Tom, delighted to see you back at it again. Do email me your shipping address.
I can't think of any optical property of glass which isn't well-characterized. Can you be explicit about this phenomenon which supposedly has no explanation?
I can't think of any optical property of glass which isn't well-characterized. Can you be explicit about this phenomenon which supposedly has no explanation?
Gold has genuine value in connectors because it doesn't corrode or oxidize. In that regard, gold has a superiority that silver, copper, and especially aluminum will not displace.
I frequently specify gold plated connectors in many designs. Gold will NOT improve the quality of the connection. But it will PRESERVE the quality of the connections over time. Connections made with light pressure (RCA) and maintained with small currents will benefit by the use gold. That is why gold is common on computer cards where the pressure of the connection, and the currents and voltages are small.
Gold connectors for line level connections is a good idea. You WON'T hear it. If you live in a very dry environment you could go without. The advantages of gold are lost when people "play" too much with their wires. The gold is thin and rubs off easily.
I frequently specify gold plated connectors in many designs. Gold will NOT improve the quality of the connection. But it will PRESERVE the quality of the connections over time. Connections made with light pressure (RCA) and maintained with small currents will benefit by the use gold. That is why gold is common on computer cards where the pressure of the connection, and the currents and voltages are small.
Gold connectors for line level connections is a good idea. You WON'T hear it. If you live in a very dry environment you could go without. The advantages of gold are lost when people "play" too much with their wires. The gold is thin and rubs off easily.
Hey Sy, this is a little off-topic, but not outside the bounds of speculation in this thread. Feynman discusses light reflectivity in his book QED. He says, and I quoth:
"The most expensive Nordost cables are the best dadgum cables I EVER HEARD!"
Whoops, wrong Feynman book. Just a sec.
OK, in QED, he begins the discussion at pg 16. I'll give you a bit in case you don't have the book:
"When I talk about the partial reflection of light by glass, I am going to pretend that the light is reflected by only the surface of the glass. In reality, a piece of glass is a terrible monster of complexity---huge numbers of electrons are jiggling about. When a photon comes down, it interacts with electrons throughout the glass, not just on the surface ... "
He then goes on to explain a measurement technique for calculating how much light between 4 and 16% will be reflected by what thickness of glass based on this technique. But he has no idea, really, what is producing the effect.
"The most expensive Nordost cables are the best dadgum cables I EVER HEARD!"
Whoops, wrong Feynman book. Just a sec.
OK, in QED, he begins the discussion at pg 16. I'll give you a bit in case you don't have the book:
"When I talk about the partial reflection of light by glass, I am going to pretend that the light is reflected by only the surface of the glass. In reality, a piece of glass is a terrible monster of complexity---huge numbers of electrons are jiggling about. When a photon comes down, it interacts with electrons throughout the glass, not just on the surface ... "
He then goes on to explain a measurement technique for calculating how much light between 4 and 16% will be reflected by what thickness of glass based on this technique. But he has no idea, really, what is producing the effect.
I believe you have a profound insight into the effect of DA in that regard. The analogy is very good indeed.
There has to be some explanantion for materials that conduct so poorly while storing so much charge.
There has to be some explanantion for materials that conduct so poorly while storing so much charge.
Silver's still the plate of choice in the RF world. The only gold-plated RF connecters I've seen are generally the kind in clear packaging marketed to home users, never a Kings or Pomona. Is there a difference in RF conductivity between the two materials?
Tom: Ah, I see what you're driving at. Feynman was big on the idea that we don't "know" anything, really, but despite that, we can calculate and predict things to a wonderful accuracy. For example, we don't "know" what spin really is, but nonetheless, we can build ESR and NMR spectrometers, predict spin coupling, measure magnetic fields, etc, etc. We don't "know" what time really is, but we can nonetheless build marvelous clocks. So, in that sense, the sort of ignorance Feynman is talking about is irrelevant in engineering discussions, but quite important when physicists talk about fundamental properties of matter and space.
Side note: Confusingly, he has two books on QED, one a popular treatment, the other a slim paperback which is impenetrable by mere mortal minds. Slightly more accessible is his classic paper, "Space-Time Approach to Quantum Electrodynamics," Phys. Rev 16:6, 769 (1949), a model of original thought and clear exposition.
Side note: Confusingly, he has two books on QED, one a popular treatment, the other a slim paperback which is impenetrable by mere mortal minds. Slightly more accessible is his classic paper, "Space-Time Approach to Quantum Electrodynamics," Phys. Rev 16:6, 769 (1949), a model of original thought and clear exposition.
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