Silver commonly appears to be the surface treatment of choice in the RF world. In AM phasor arrays for example, comprised typically of coils in the 1-2 foot diameter range and interconnect jumpers of 1-2" wide copper strap handling killowatts, it's not unusual for all these bits to be silver plated. Phasors arrays are anything but a boutique application and in this case the silver isn't applied to a sliding contact. Interesting discussion on the topic:
http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/amps/1999-September/013080.html
http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/amps/1999-September/013080.html
SY said:
Yes, that's a more solid foundation, no doubt. I don't think we're advanced enough in audio to know properly how we might measure what we hear, which is why voodoo can get a foothold. The only way I can see to get to a measurement basis is to plod through these admittedly tortuous early-scientific stages. We're kinda like Aristotle looking at a stream, pondering.
You betcha, Ana_tech,
I am not a sandman or a tubey. I am just looking for an HONEST way to make a buck and provide something that people would ACTUALLY benefit by. I could sell gold plated, silver under-lay, foam teflon insulated welding cable... but that's not me.
There are REAL issues at hand here... and we dance around them.
Has anyone here ever stood next to a REAL FLAME/PLASMA tweeter?
My point being, if you haven't, you're not addressing the weakest link... you are addressing the easiest, and least provable, link. And I don't like newbies being told the value of speaker wires.
We are collectively barking up the wrong tree (me, becaouse I like to argue, and especially love to be proven wrong (get it?)
I am not a sandman or a tubey. I am just looking for an HONEST way to make a buck and provide something that people would ACTUALLY benefit by. I could sell gold plated, silver under-lay, foam teflon insulated welding cable... but that's not me.
There are REAL issues at hand here... and we dance around them.
Has anyone here ever stood next to a REAL FLAME/PLASMA tweeter?
My point being, if you haven't, you're not addressing the weakest link... you are addressing the easiest, and least provable, link. And I don't like newbies being told the value of speaker wires.
We are collectively barking up the wrong tree (me, becaouse I like to argue, and especially love to be proven wrong (get it?)
Happy birthday Mr Y. Hope it's a good one for you.
I think the answer to the conductivity and corrosion issues is to simply dip your lead connectors into a cheap Merlot once a month and be done with it. Metal type? who cares, the acids in the wine create a wonderful contact point.
Have one for me SY
I think the answer to the conductivity and corrosion issues is to simply dip your lead connectors into a cheap Merlot once a month and be done with it. Metal type? who cares, the acids in the wine create a wonderful contact point.
Have one for me SY
Hey Bratislav, I gave you the source for the light reflectivity mystery --- it's Richard Feynman, and please, sort it out, Feynman couldn't.
Curmudgeon said:
🙂 and I demand research into those poor unfortunates who claim to be able to hear an improvement brought about by a more expensive interconnect;-)
My bet is there is a 1:1 correlation between those poor dupes and those who think Wilson Audio speakers are accurate.
Sorry! Sorry! I'll go back under my rock now - work must be getting to me...
SY said:
SY, are there any figures out there on the web? All I can find are the figures for the metals, but not for the oxides. There's another discussion on silver on another forum here in Melbourne (Aus) at the moment where this came up as well.
Cloth Ears said:
There's a local forum in Melb??? Can I have a link please.
Whoa .....the reply to view ratio is now 4.51 !
Cheers
serengetiplains said:
I didn't want to get into metaphysical discussions.
The cyclic changes in refractive index are never observed in real life (otherwise they would make interference plates, dichroic filters and antireflective coatings impossible to work).
While there, help me out on this - what thickness of glass do we need to have 16% reflectivity again ? Assume say BK-7.
I'll read the relevant QED pages tonight, it looks I'm dragged into it.
Bratislav
quasi,
It's the Melbourne Audio Club one (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/maclub/), which I don't think you can use unless you're a financial member. Which incidentally is worth the $50 for the 'zine and the December DIY meeting (IMHO🙂.
Club link: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~macinc/
It's the Melbourne Audio Club one (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/maclub/), which I don't think you can use unless you're a financial member. Which incidentally is worth the $50 for the 'zine and the December DIY meeting (IMHO🙂.
Club link: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~macinc/
Feynman on interconnects and cables in general
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. "
and on cable manufacturers (*):
Cargo cult science is a term used by Richard Feynman in his 1974 Caltech commencement address to describe work that has the semblance of being scientific, but is missing "a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty".
(*) most of them don't even manufacture anything but rebadge stuff or get generic stuff printed with a brand name at the factory - usually somewhere in far East; the only stuff they manufacture is "scientific" explanations on why their cable is superior (preferably with lots of impressively looking colored graphs)
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. "
and on cable manufacturers (*):
Cargo cult science is a term used by Richard Feynman in his 1974 Caltech commencement address to describe work that has the semblance of being scientific, but is missing "a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty".
(*) most of them don't even manufacture anything but rebadge stuff or get generic stuff printed with a brand name at the factory - usually somewhere in far East; the only stuff they manufacture is "scientific" explanations on why their cable is superior (preferably with lots of impressively looking colored graphs)
quasi said:
long time ago(90's,maybe).
its me,but two days back(not long time ago😉)
thats a cub,cute cub,not lion🙂
it becomes quite difficult to follow the threads when its as popular as this one.reason being that here in INDIA,its morning when its night out there and vice-versa.
i left it at p14 and see where its now.
Jon said it well!
Just saw this tonight and Jon R says it well.
Posted by Jon Risch (B) on December 04, 2005 at 20:19:47
In Reply to: What SQ improvment would you expect from this? posted by kingdaddy on November 30, 2005 at 14:24:11:
There are many things that are not immediately apparent with things audio, until you can look back with higdsight and the benefit of someone else having figured it out already.
Just because you personally can not think of what YOU consider a good reason for something to have a sonic effect, does not mean that what some one else hears does not have any merit in logic or science.
AC power issues are one of those realms where we have a body of knowledge, but one that is aimed at and based strictly on industrial usage and concerns, and the concerns of the power company, which are not the concerns of the audiophile/music-lover user.
However, once we look at the situation from the standpoint of the audiophile/music-lover, and concenr ourselves with every detail, rather than only the ones that someone thinks are relevant, then we can BEGIN to analyze and understand what may be going on.
Remember, we are not just concerned with some equipment being able to be turned on, or just with it not humming too loud or buzzing, we are concerned with the equipment SOUNDING good, no, not just sounding good, sounding as good as it can with the other components it is part of a system with. This goes well beyond mere operation, mere freedom from obvious interference, it goes toward an attempt at perfection, at an attempt toward approaching some ideal and an elusive higher level of performance beyond that imagined by the designer of a toaster oven, or a vacuum cleaner.
Some folks do not seem to care about reaching for that level of performance, they seem to be quite satisfied with a level of performance that is fine for a toaster oven, and nothing more.
That's fine, but those folks shouldn't feel that they have the right, nor the duty, nor the license to give other folks who want to achieve more, any sort of grief or trouble for trying to reach that acheivement.
Demanding logic of scientific proof is not a required either, and those that post about their experiences of various tweaks, experiments, etc., should not have to come up with an explanation, when the skeptic or doubter has not really applied himself to the task in the first place.
Paramount for that is the requirement for those who demand evidence to actually try the tweak or experiment for themselves, before they can be empowered to pass judgement on it. If you haven't even tried the tweak or experiment, then you can not even begin to comment on it, one way or the other, as you have not taken the first step needed to be able to do so, that of LISTENING to the proposed tweak.
In this case, we have a very inexpensive object, an AC wall plate, and a SS wall plate does not cost more than a couple of dollars to buy one to try out. But then we beg the question of whether or not one would be able to hear it if the AC wall outlets are still the 88 cent POS version commonly used in many private dwellings, and the AC wiring is of the daisy-chain type where it is strung from outlet to outlet through the house, using only the push-in terminals on the rear, etc., and an 18 ga. OEM power cord is making the connection, etc., etc.
For some reasons that AC power can be more than a simple and certain situation, see:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/82423.html
and specifically:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/13538.html
As for this specific situation, where a sonic improvement is claimed for the use of a non-magnetic stainless steel wall outlet cover plate, over that of a more typical molded plastic plate, let me speculate a bit on what I was able to think up for possible reasons that it could sound not only different, but even better.
At first glance, a wal plate would not sem to be a candidate for a sonic improvement tweak, it is 'merely' a covering device for the wall outlet, which actually makes the connection for the AC power to the audio component. This seems to preclude it being capable of affecting the sound of an audio system one way or another. But rather than automatically asue that we already 'know' this 'fact', let's actually analyze it from a first principles kind of viewpoint.
We are dealing with EM energy, and the transport and supply thereof. So what effect on EM energy can a wall plate have?
Well, the AC power outlet is located IN the wall plate, mounted in it to be more precise. Therefore, the AC power passes THROUGH the opening in the wall plate for the wall outlet.
What is present when we transfer AC power at 120V and at 60 Hz? We have a fairly high voltage potential that is constantly varying 120 times a second, thus a time varying electric field is present, and if there is any power used by a component connected to the AC line, then current is drawn, and a time varying magnetic field is present.
WIth a more typ0ical plastic wall plate, the magnetic field would not be affected at all, but the electric field would be affected by the dielectric properties of the wall plate material.
However, once we swap out the plastic wall plate for a non-magnetic SS one, we have changed the situation. The magnetic field is still not affected directly, but there is now a conducting piece of material present, and a time varying magnetic field can induce a voltage in that conductive material. The electric field has been affected directly, in that as soon as it encounters the conductive material, it is "shorted out".
Let's examine those two differences in some some more detail.
The change in the wall plate's efect on the electric field may be the most important, as creating this "short circuit" point for the AC power trail might mean that it has changed the length of a tuned stub antenna, thus altering the pick-up of RF energy by the AC power line connection. Even though a potential reflection point is created at each interuption or variation in the characteristic impedance of the wiring, such as at an outlet, or an any sort of junction or terminals, a virtually complete short circuit is an even more drastic change, and would be a very definite point of potential RF signal reflection or termination.
Thus, swapping out a plastic wall plate with a non-magnetic SS one will change the RF antenna action of the AC wiring drastically.
The change with regard to the magnetic field is more subtle, and would involve a minor alteration of the magnetic field in the vicinity of the wall plate, but not nearly as much as if the wall plate were of a ferrous metal material, such as steel. A steel wall plate would have a much greater impact on the magnetic field, and would distort it to a much greater degree.
In general terms, any distortion of an EM field will also be reflected in the orginal signal that generated the EM field, and so, cause some distortion of the original signal.
In the case of the AC power line, the current is NOT a linear corralary of the voltage, but rather, is typically drawn in short duration but high current impulses near the peak of the AC sine wave voltage (see previously referenced URL's for some more on this). This means that a series of harmonics of the power line frequency are generated, and this series can extend all the way up to the upper reaches of the audio band in severe cases. Anything that alters this series of harmonics wil also alter how othe other components are reacting to this power line content. Since everything in the audio system is usually deriving current through that same wall outlet, then if the harmonic level's are altered due to the presence or absence of magnetic material, and/or conducting material, it is possible that the net overall sound of the system could be altered due to the change in power line interference content.
My own research has suggested that the presence of magnetic materials near an AC power line tend to emphasize the odd order power line harmonics, while the presence of conducting materials tends to emphasize the even order harmonics instead. With both a conducting AND magnetic material, all the harmonics seem to be emphasized.
Incidentally, reports of the beneficial sonics of wooden wall plates may derive in part from the fact that most wood varnish and/or wax is slightly diamagnetic, that is, it actually repells (very slightly) a magnetic field. It probably doesn't hurt that wood also tends to have a more benign behavior as a dielectric compared to most typical wall outlet plastics.
I may have overlooked something in my cursory (and still very simplistic) analysis, but I believe that I have made my point, that there may indeed be factors which are commonly overlooked,, responsible for why certain things sound the way they do.
Just because YOU can't think of those reasons, does not mean that there are none, and none of this gives anyone the license to berate or belittle anyone reporting their experiences with changing out wall plates, or any other tweaks or experiments in their playback system.
Jon Risch
Just saw this tonight and Jon R says it well.
Posted by Jon Risch (B) on December 04, 2005 at 20:19:47
In Reply to: What SQ improvment would you expect from this? posted by kingdaddy on November 30, 2005 at 14:24:11:
There are many things that are not immediately apparent with things audio, until you can look back with higdsight and the benefit of someone else having figured it out already.
Just because you personally can not think of what YOU consider a good reason for something to have a sonic effect, does not mean that what some one else hears does not have any merit in logic or science.
AC power issues are one of those realms where we have a body of knowledge, but one that is aimed at and based strictly on industrial usage and concerns, and the concerns of the power company, which are not the concerns of the audiophile/music-lover user.
However, once we look at the situation from the standpoint of the audiophile/music-lover, and concenr ourselves with every detail, rather than only the ones that someone thinks are relevant, then we can BEGIN to analyze and understand what may be going on.
Remember, we are not just concerned with some equipment being able to be turned on, or just with it not humming too loud or buzzing, we are concerned with the equipment SOUNDING good, no, not just sounding good, sounding as good as it can with the other components it is part of a system with. This goes well beyond mere operation, mere freedom from obvious interference, it goes toward an attempt at perfection, at an attempt toward approaching some ideal and an elusive higher level of performance beyond that imagined by the designer of a toaster oven, or a vacuum cleaner.
Some folks do not seem to care about reaching for that level of performance, they seem to be quite satisfied with a level of performance that is fine for a toaster oven, and nothing more.
That's fine, but those folks shouldn't feel that they have the right, nor the duty, nor the license to give other folks who want to achieve more, any sort of grief or trouble for trying to reach that acheivement.
Demanding logic of scientific proof is not a required either, and those that post about their experiences of various tweaks, experiments, etc., should not have to come up with an explanation, when the skeptic or doubter has not really applied himself to the task in the first place.
Paramount for that is the requirement for those who demand evidence to actually try the tweak or experiment for themselves, before they can be empowered to pass judgement on it. If you haven't even tried the tweak or experiment, then you can not even begin to comment on it, one way or the other, as you have not taken the first step needed to be able to do so, that of LISTENING to the proposed tweak.
In this case, we have a very inexpensive object, an AC wall plate, and a SS wall plate does not cost more than a couple of dollars to buy one to try out. But then we beg the question of whether or not one would be able to hear it if the AC wall outlets are still the 88 cent POS version commonly used in many private dwellings, and the AC wiring is of the daisy-chain type where it is strung from outlet to outlet through the house, using only the push-in terminals on the rear, etc., and an 18 ga. OEM power cord is making the connection, etc., etc.
For some reasons that AC power can be more than a simple and certain situation, see:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/82423.html
and specifically:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/13538.html
As for this specific situation, where a sonic improvement is claimed for the use of a non-magnetic stainless steel wall outlet cover plate, over that of a more typical molded plastic plate, let me speculate a bit on what I was able to think up for possible reasons that it could sound not only different, but even better.
At first glance, a wal plate would not sem to be a candidate for a sonic improvement tweak, it is 'merely' a covering device for the wall outlet, which actually makes the connection for the AC power to the audio component. This seems to preclude it being capable of affecting the sound of an audio system one way or another. But rather than automatically asue that we already 'know' this 'fact', let's actually analyze it from a first principles kind of viewpoint.
We are dealing with EM energy, and the transport and supply thereof. So what effect on EM energy can a wall plate have?
Well, the AC power outlet is located IN the wall plate, mounted in it to be more precise. Therefore, the AC power passes THROUGH the opening in the wall plate for the wall outlet.
What is present when we transfer AC power at 120V and at 60 Hz? We have a fairly high voltage potential that is constantly varying 120 times a second, thus a time varying electric field is present, and if there is any power used by a component connected to the AC line, then current is drawn, and a time varying magnetic field is present.
WIth a more typ0ical plastic wall plate, the magnetic field would not be affected at all, but the electric field would be affected by the dielectric properties of the wall plate material.
However, once we swap out the plastic wall plate for a non-magnetic SS one, we have changed the situation. The magnetic field is still not affected directly, but there is now a conducting piece of material present, and a time varying magnetic field can induce a voltage in that conductive material. The electric field has been affected directly, in that as soon as it encounters the conductive material, it is "shorted out".
Let's examine those two differences in some some more detail.
The change in the wall plate's efect on the electric field may be the most important, as creating this "short circuit" point for the AC power trail might mean that it has changed the length of a tuned stub antenna, thus altering the pick-up of RF energy by the AC power line connection. Even though a potential reflection point is created at each interuption or variation in the characteristic impedance of the wiring, such as at an outlet, or an any sort of junction or terminals, a virtually complete short circuit is an even more drastic change, and would be a very definite point of potential RF signal reflection or termination.
Thus, swapping out a plastic wall plate with a non-magnetic SS one will change the RF antenna action of the AC wiring drastically.
The change with regard to the magnetic field is more subtle, and would involve a minor alteration of the magnetic field in the vicinity of the wall plate, but not nearly as much as if the wall plate were of a ferrous metal material, such as steel. A steel wall plate would have a much greater impact on the magnetic field, and would distort it to a much greater degree.
In general terms, any distortion of an EM field will also be reflected in the orginal signal that generated the EM field, and so, cause some distortion of the original signal.
In the case of the AC power line, the current is NOT a linear corralary of the voltage, but rather, is typically drawn in short duration but high current impulses near the peak of the AC sine wave voltage (see previously referenced URL's for some more on this). This means that a series of harmonics of the power line frequency are generated, and this series can extend all the way up to the upper reaches of the audio band in severe cases. Anything that alters this series of harmonics wil also alter how othe other components are reacting to this power line content. Since everything in the audio system is usually deriving current through that same wall outlet, then if the harmonic level's are altered due to the presence or absence of magnetic material, and/or conducting material, it is possible that the net overall sound of the system could be altered due to the change in power line interference content.
My own research has suggested that the presence of magnetic materials near an AC power line tend to emphasize the odd order power line harmonics, while the presence of conducting materials tends to emphasize the even order harmonics instead. With both a conducting AND magnetic material, all the harmonics seem to be emphasized.
Incidentally, reports of the beneficial sonics of wooden wall plates may derive in part from the fact that most wood varnish and/or wax is slightly diamagnetic, that is, it actually repells (very slightly) a magnetic field. It probably doesn't hurt that wood also tends to have a more benign behavior as a dielectric compared to most typical wall outlet plastics.
I may have overlooked something in my cursory (and still very simplistic) analysis, but I believe that I have made my point, that there may indeed be factors which are commonly overlooked,, responsible for why certain things sound the way they do.
Just because YOU can't think of those reasons, does not mean that there are none, and none of this gives anyone the license to berate or belittle anyone reporting their experiences with changing out wall plates, or any other tweaks or experiments in their playback system.
Jon Risch
Excellent command of language and clear expression of ideas (although rather lengthy). But here it is again, no measurements and no linking of measurements to the potential affects on audio.
Only more hypothesis, albeit very well written. If this was a thesis it would receive a credit maybe even a distinction for the pre-amble but there would be a lot of questions about the lack of support material.
Only more hypothesis, albeit very well written. If this was a thesis it would receive a credit maybe even a distinction for the pre-amble but there would be a lot of questions about the lack of support material.
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