Happiest Holidays, and back to cables.
Up above there was a request for anecdotal information that apparently had some measurement correlation.
Some discursive background. And then a single data point, with plenty of meandering anecdote.
I've been working on interconnect cables, as the new speaker system made several system deficiencies clear. Changes were needed. First it was the amplifier, Bryston 3B to 4B, then to 4BST. Then the CD player, from CAL Tercet Mk. IV to Levenson 30 DAC with the CAL as transport. One cable from ARC (first series) to Wireworld Silver Eclipse III+. Then the preamp to a passive attenuator, Audio Synthesis. And the turntable got replaced, just 'cause it died. Now, post-retirement, a (much) less expensive alternative to the WW cable was needed for several positions.
Looked around, and made several types, with different materials and techniques. I have a great deal of contempt (not too strong a word) for those who tell me I only hear my expectations, as I have been confounded far too many times. The first experiments were with high expectations, and had strong recommendations for the materials and technique, so the finding that the first tries were unacceptable was unexpected. After several experiments, I came up with one version that I like, as I cannot hear a signature associated with it. It has been compared with the WW Silver and Gold Eclipse III+'s (both 1/2 meter) and is quite like the Gold, where again I cannot hear a signature. I will post the design after I tie up a few loose ends.
Based on some audible characteristics of a polyethylene insulated braided version that was not at all successful, I decided that Dielectric Absorption was the most audible aspect of the failure. I therefore developed a design to minimize DA, and that design is, I feel, successful.
The DA is not measurable (by me) in such a low capacitance; but the capacitance is 13.5 pF for a two foot cable, terminated with RCA connectors.
It does not have much in common with the WW's; but both use air and Teflon insulation, and multiple individually insulated strands; the WW's have many more strands, and use silver, with silver connectors. The recent price increases in silver preclude experimenting with silver connectors! The new cables use copper wire, fewer strands than the WW's, and high Cu content brass connectors. That there are considerable differences in the design of two cables that I like indicates to me that I don't know of a single best design approach, beyond using good materials and keeping Dielectric Absorption very low ( and capacitance very low as a result.)
I note that some cables with good reviews have also minimized capacitance and DA; I have not heard them. A couple of sites report having used SPICE to emulate the cables' behavior, and the emulations indicated that low C was important on interconnects, and that low R (doh) and L were important for speaker cables. After I finish off the interconnect cable project, I will be working on speaker cables next.
Listening was done with several very familiar CD's, all acoustic instruments; symphonic, 50's instrumentals, vocals, jazz. The Cables Under Test run from the DAC outputs into a fixed Y attenuator, using Vishay S102's directly at the input of the Bryston, summing into a single channel as only one channel of speakers is complete. Speaker cable is 15 feet of Straight Wire Teflon 12. Cables were broken in silently, and for more than 100 hours.
HermanV was of great help here and is co-conspirator on the speaker project.
When I post the construction of the cable, I'd like to include pictures, but being relatively new here, any suggestions on how to do that would be greatly appreciated.
Up above there was a request for anecdotal information that apparently had some measurement correlation.
Some discursive background. And then a single data point, with plenty of meandering anecdote.
I've been working on interconnect cables, as the new speaker system made several system deficiencies clear. Changes were needed. First it was the amplifier, Bryston 3B to 4B, then to 4BST. Then the CD player, from CAL Tercet Mk. IV to Levenson 30 DAC with the CAL as transport. One cable from ARC (first series) to Wireworld Silver Eclipse III+. Then the preamp to a passive attenuator, Audio Synthesis. And the turntable got replaced, just 'cause it died. Now, post-retirement, a (much) less expensive alternative to the WW cable was needed for several positions.
Looked around, and made several types, with different materials and techniques. I have a great deal of contempt (not too strong a word) for those who tell me I only hear my expectations, as I have been confounded far too many times. The first experiments were with high expectations, and had strong recommendations for the materials and technique, so the finding that the first tries were unacceptable was unexpected. After several experiments, I came up with one version that I like, as I cannot hear a signature associated with it. It has been compared with the WW Silver and Gold Eclipse III+'s (both 1/2 meter) and is quite like the Gold, where again I cannot hear a signature. I will post the design after I tie up a few loose ends.
Based on some audible characteristics of a polyethylene insulated braided version that was not at all successful, I decided that Dielectric Absorption was the most audible aspect of the failure. I therefore developed a design to minimize DA, and that design is, I feel, successful.
The DA is not measurable (by me) in such a low capacitance; but the capacitance is 13.5 pF for a two foot cable, terminated with RCA connectors.
It does not have much in common with the WW's; but both use air and Teflon insulation, and multiple individually insulated strands; the WW's have many more strands, and use silver, with silver connectors. The recent price increases in silver preclude experimenting with silver connectors! The new cables use copper wire, fewer strands than the WW's, and high Cu content brass connectors. That there are considerable differences in the design of two cables that I like indicates to me that I don't know of a single best design approach, beyond using good materials and keeping Dielectric Absorption very low ( and capacitance very low as a result.)
I note that some cables with good reviews have also minimized capacitance and DA; I have not heard them. A couple of sites report having used SPICE to emulate the cables' behavior, and the emulations indicated that low C was important on interconnects, and that low R (doh) and L were important for speaker cables. After I finish off the interconnect cable project, I will be working on speaker cables next.
Listening was done with several very familiar CD's, all acoustic instruments; symphonic, 50's instrumentals, vocals, jazz. The Cables Under Test run from the DAC outputs into a fixed Y attenuator, using Vishay S102's directly at the input of the Bryston, summing into a single channel as only one channel of speakers is complete. Speaker cable is 15 feet of Straight Wire Teflon 12. Cables were broken in silently, and for more than 100 hours.
HermanV was of great help here and is co-conspirator on the speaker project.
When I post the construction of the cable, I'd like to include pictures, but being relatively new here, any suggestions on how to do that would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for posting, Curmudgeon. I look forward to hearing further about your design. Re design basics, my experience parallels yours on the audibility of DA. I plan to experiment with silver wire with as-much-air-as-possible dielectric. I currently use 26AWG cotton insulated solid silver wire in a simple braid. Cotton, given its air content, probably has an overall dielectric constant in the 1.4-1.5 range. I would like to lower that further.
Season's greetings all!
Season's greetings all!
Re: Re: Good points Jan
My car driving response was to illustrate the inaccuracy of the invocation of tire pressure. It was a red herring statement.
Cheers, John
No. Post 95soongsc said:
My car driving response was to illustrate the inaccuracy of the invocation of tire pressure. It was a red herring statement.
Cheers, John
Re: Re: Good points Jan
I believe we are in agreement.
What dissapoints me is not the market hype and garbage explanations, though.
What I am concerned about is the use of garbage explanations as fact.
Look at my recent bi-wire post. The effect I have postulated is not a difficult one to understand, the equations and theory have been around far longer than I've been alive (yes, even longer than Sy😀 ), and the effect is in the 3 to 5% range...
Is my theory incorrect? Or, was it away from the lamp-post? Is it possible the distortion type is not amenable to FFT analysis, as in a new class of distortion...who knows. But the thought process is what I love.
What confuses me so much, is how simple the analysis was...how come nobody saw it😕 How come nobody measured it😕
I blame those who tout the garbage explanations, claiming we can't measure it but it can be heard, and (this is the worst part) badgering the scientific ones enough that they simply move on. Instead of constructive dialogue, it is more of the setting up of kingdoms.
They are the ones I blame for the stagnation of high end audio.
Cheers, John😕
janneman said:
I believe we are in agreement.
What dissapoints me is not the market hype and garbage explanations, though.
What I am concerned about is the use of garbage explanations as fact.
Look at my recent bi-wire post. The effect I have postulated is not a difficult one to understand, the equations and theory have been around far longer than I've been alive (yes, even longer than Sy😀 ), and the effect is in the 3 to 5% range...
Is my theory incorrect? Or, was it away from the lamp-post? Is it possible the distortion type is not amenable to FFT analysis, as in a new class of distortion...who knows. But the thought process is what I love.
What confuses me so much, is how simple the analysis was...how come nobody saw it😕 How come nobody measured it😕
I blame those who tout the garbage explanations, claiming we can't measure it but it can be heard, and (this is the worst part) badgering the scientific ones enough that they simply move on. Instead of constructive dialogue, it is more of the setting up of kingdoms.
They are the ones I blame for the stagnation of high end audio.
Cheers, John😕
Ya snooze.....
Poobah: speeping at the keyboard! You have been beat to the liquid cable deal by a long ways as mercury was done years ago. Now liquid ceramic material is available. Better get a move on a patent on saline conductors so you dont' miss your chance. Have a look at this. http://www.cerioustechnologies.com/Cables/sp_cables.html
Regards Moray James.
Poobah: speeping at the keyboard! You have been beat to the liquid cable deal by a long ways as mercury was done years ago. Now liquid ceramic material is available. Better get a move on a patent on saline conductors so you dont' miss your chance. Have a look at this. http://www.cerioustechnologies.com/Cables/sp_cables.html
Regards Moray James.
Moray,
That is just too much! Same lack of data...verification via listening again.
It would seem my sarcastic sense of humor is genuinely visionary... I'll just keep making jokes and you'll all have something to take to the patent office.
I once worked in an upholstery shop. A customer with a Mercedes came in complaining that he had a lump in his seat. We could feel no lump, and told him so, but replaced the internal pad as the best course of action. He returned some weeks later still complaining of the lump; he watched as I placed different weights on the seat and measured the displacement, no evidence, but we replaced the platform and spring assembly at his request. Weeks later, again at his request, we replaced the external seat cover (about $700 thus far for all the goodies).
Weeks later he returned again; we had replaced all that went between his rear and terra firma. Frustrated as hell, I told him that he'd better get to doctor, "because the lump was in his a$$!".
Months later he returned, jovial, limping, and forgetting of the harsh but brief words we shared. He went on to explain that, he did go to doctor, he did have a golfball sized calcium deposit growing on his pelvis, that it had subsequently been removed, and that the lump in his seat was gone.
Check out what jneutron is working on in the "AUDIO LIES" thread. He may be onto something that might explain an intermodulation effect that may be present in cables. I have been working on some sims as well but need to make some money around here.
Happy new year!
That is just too much! Same lack of data...verification via listening again.
It would seem my sarcastic sense of humor is genuinely visionary... I'll just keep making jokes and you'll all have something to take to the patent office.
I once worked in an upholstery shop. A customer with a Mercedes came in complaining that he had a lump in his seat. We could feel no lump, and told him so, but replaced the internal pad as the best course of action. He returned some weeks later still complaining of the lump; he watched as I placed different weights on the seat and measured the displacement, no evidence, but we replaced the platform and spring assembly at his request. Weeks later, again at his request, we replaced the external seat cover (about $700 thus far for all the goodies).
Weeks later he returned again; we had replaced all that went between his rear and terra firma. Frustrated as hell, I told him that he'd better get to doctor, "because the lump was in his a$$!".
Months later he returned, jovial, limping, and forgetting of the harsh but brief words we shared. He went on to explain that, he did go to doctor, he did have a golfball sized calcium deposit growing on his pelvis, that it had subsequently been removed, and that the lump in his seat was gone.
Check out what jneutron is working on in the "AUDIO LIES" thread. He may be onto something that might explain an intermodulation effect that may be present in cables. I have been working on some sims as well but need to make some money around here.
Happy new year!
Hi Moray,
There outta be a law to protect the innocent! 😀 Years ago we joked about speaker cable lifts - don't bother linking to them, we already saw the ads.
So how do they sound in your system? 😉
-Chris
There outta be a law to protect the innocent! 😀 Years ago we joked about speaker cable lifts - don't bother linking to them, we already saw the ads.
So how do they sound in your system? 😉
-Chris
Hi poobah,
Who me?
Kidding?
I once heard a salesman explain to a customer that the arrows on IC's where to point down so the signal would reach the next component easier. (!
) I'm sure that's why cassette decks don't sound so good in his mind. 
-Chris
Who me?
Kidding? I once heard a salesman explain to a customer that the arrows on IC's where to point down so the signal would reach the next component easier. (!
) I'm sure that's why cassette decks don't sound so good in his mind. -Chris
Well... their weight depends on where they are I suppose... but the mass is: 9.1 e-31 kg, and change, per each.
Sorry for the delay... I had to turn my monitor off for awhile... the electrons were wearing out (getting rough) and my screen was grainy.
The new ones haven't broken in yet... looks harsh, strident.
😀
Sorry for the delay... I had to turn my monitor off for awhile... the electrons were wearing out (getting rough) and my screen was grainy.
The new ones haven't broken in yet... looks harsh, strident.
😀
Well there you go....
Not much you say...but there a lots and lots of 'em. So the combined weight could be substantial (on earth at sea level). Maybe it does make sense to have the cables pointing down......maybe we were too quick to discredit the sales person .....maybe ....uuuh forget it.
Not much you say...but there a lots and lots of 'em. So the combined weight could be substantial (on earth at sea level). Maybe it does make sense to have the cables pointing down......maybe we were too quick to discredit the sales person .....maybe ....uuuh forget it.
Don't forget the electrons will have to crawl back up half of the time. Or did the sales guy listen to DC only? 🙂
Wires take up more electrons when current is flowing through them???
OK, here's a good trivia question (no fair using the Search function to get the answer and Steve Eddy is disqualified). You have two identical capacitors. One gets charged up, the other is left uncharged. Is there a difference in weight and why/why not?
OK, here's a good trivia question (no fair using the Search function to get the answer and Steve Eddy is disqualified). You have two identical capacitors. One gets charged up, the other is left uncharged. Is there a difference in weight and why/why not?
SY said:
Ehhhh... I think they weigh the same, but the charged one will probably tip over, no?
Jan Didden
janneman said:
Good point, but only if it is a two-plate cap or similar geometry. If it is a roll or some other distributed geometry, there won't be much effect from the mass redistribution. I don't think we have to worry about it and use extra-strong solder for caps, though. 🙂
Cool answer ! But maybe it will even have better stability depending upon physical construction and polarity of the charge applied !
Regards
Charles
Hi SY,
The charged one weighs more. I can prove it too. Every time I charge a cap (axial) I carefully bend the leads around so they don't touch. I toss it lightly to another who immediately screams and drops the capacitor.
Therefore they are too heavy to catch because they are charged!
-Chris
P.S. : Great answer janneman!
The charged one weighs more. I can prove it too. Every time I charge a cap (axial) I carefully bend the leads around so they don't touch. I toss it lightly to another who immediately screams and drops the capacitor.
Therefore they are too heavy to catch because they are charged!
-Chris
P.S. : Great answer janneman!
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