say guy who owns audio business doesn't believe in switching supplies. also, say guy seems not able to design a buffer with SNR greater than 80 something dB, and that is using a chip which is capable of 125 dB. what would you think of said guy?
also, say this is not exactly hypothetical.
also, say this is not exactly hypothetical.
Last edited:
ok, you guessed. the case described above is not hypothetical. you don't win anything.
but I'm not looking to bash anyone in particular. just the state of the affairs in general.
looks to me that there are more and more audio companies emerging. many are small. the products they sell seem to tick all the boxes. discrete regs? check. many of them? check. no opamps? check. no global FB? check. ultra super low jitter clock? check. you get the idea. they did their homework and assimilated all the audio recipes that float online.
does it all add to a good product? **** no.
I mean, let's get back to the initial example. ok, a SMPS can be made bad. look at the laptop replacement ones from China. trust me. they are awful. but compare them to a stock supply on a brand name notebook. night and day difference. they can be made good or bad.
but when one uses discrete regs, while a very good chip from Linear is not exactly expensive, I tend to assume it's for improved performance. which does not apply when the analog out has a 80 dB SNR. especially when the product is returned to the manufactures TWO times, and those 80 dBs of SNR are BARELY achieved.
ok, I need to lower my voice.
oh and the "no caps on the signal path" checkbox. checked too. sure, why not. why not put a 100Mhz, 1000V/us buffer directly at the output of a sigma-delta chip and drop the filter altogether. I mean, who are the guys at Wolfson to tell us that we need to add a LPF? they're just engineers, not audiophiles, what do they know? they even took the trouble to optimize a low noise filter design and give it to us for free as application information! poor ridiculous engineers...
and did I mention that their "improved" design outputs 80 dB of SNR?
and did I mention that they advertise the product as better than a similar one from an established, respected company?
what I really mean is... call me crazy, but I get the feeling that many of these guys know jack ****. they just throw parts together.
LE: what I meant about the Chinese switching supplies is that they are EMI/RFI orgies
but I'm not looking to bash anyone in particular. just the state of the affairs in general.
looks to me that there are more and more audio companies emerging. many are small. the products they sell seem to tick all the boxes. discrete regs? check. many of them? check. no opamps? check. no global FB? check. ultra super low jitter clock? check. you get the idea. they did their homework and assimilated all the audio recipes that float online.
does it all add to a good product? **** no.
I mean, let's get back to the initial example. ok, a SMPS can be made bad. look at the laptop replacement ones from China. trust me. they are awful. but compare them to a stock supply on a brand name notebook. night and day difference. they can be made good or bad.
but when one uses discrete regs, while a very good chip from Linear is not exactly expensive, I tend to assume it's for improved performance. which does not apply when the analog out has a 80 dB SNR. especially when the product is returned to the manufactures TWO times, and those 80 dBs of SNR are BARELY achieved.
ok, I need to lower my voice.
oh and the "no caps on the signal path" checkbox. checked too. sure, why not. why not put a 100Mhz, 1000V/us buffer directly at the output of a sigma-delta chip and drop the filter altogether. I mean, who are the guys at Wolfson to tell us that we need to add a LPF? they're just engineers, not audiophiles, what do they know? they even took the trouble to optimize a low noise filter design and give it to us for free as application information! poor ridiculous engineers...
and did I mention that their "improved" design outputs 80 dB of SNR?
and did I mention that they advertise the product as better than a similar one from an established, respected company?
what I really mean is... call me crazy, but I get the feeling that many of these guys know jack ****. they just throw parts together.
LE: what I meant about the Chinese switching supplies is that they are EMI/RFI orgies
Last edited:
Say this guy doesn't believe in SMPS....he has his reasons, are they valid? Perhaps one could elaborate such reasons, measure, test....discuss. A lot of our opinions are based on experience. I have three SMPS' from three computers all "out"....what opinion will I have of SMPSs? Regardless of the nature of the failures, I don't like them....I know( common sense) that they are made as in-expensive as possible, so I conclude the majority are built shy of my "standards" of 'over-engineering'.
So what that one can't build a 'clean/quiet' buffer........did anybody say once we get into this 'demon' .....we know everything? No.........it's not the goal, the end of the road, it's the road we are traveling that is the most important.......who cares if we get to the end, it's the journey.
___________________________________________________Rick.....
So what that one can't build a 'clean/quiet' buffer........did anybody say once we get into this 'demon' .....we know everything? No.........it's not the goal, the end of the road, it's the road we are traveling that is the most important.......who cares if we get to the end, it's the journey.
___________________________________________________Rick.....
umm... no.
I repeat. guy OWNS audio company. as in makes and sells products for a PROFIT. and people buy those products. which means they get to enjoy the 80 dB SNR. did I mention that the product I'm describing is not cheap?
the guy is not a beginner. it's not his first product.
it's the journey? this is not about a DIYer that needs something to spend his time with. it's a profit-oriented company, which sells a rather expensive product, which is not able to meet the most basic specs even cheap products do meet.
read my second reply. it should clear some things up.
I repeat. guy OWNS audio company. as in makes and sells products for a PROFIT. and people buy those products. which means they get to enjoy the 80 dB SNR. did I mention that the product I'm describing is not cheap?
the guy is not a beginner. it's not his first product.
it's the journey? this is not about a DIYer that needs something to spend his time with. it's a profit-oriented company, which sells a rather expensive product, which is not able to meet the most basic specs even cheap products do meet.
read my second reply. it should clear some things up.
Last edited:
I'm puzzled. Are you somehow expecting ALL audio business owners to be the worlds' best designers?
Are you somehow expecting all car mechanics being the worlds' best mechanic?
Would be mighty crowded at that top
BTW What happened with the caps/shift on your keyboard? Makes your poetry difficult to read easily.
jan
Are you somehow expecting all car mechanics being the worlds' best mechanic?
Would be mighty crowded at that top
BTW What happened with the caps/shift on your keyboard? Makes your poetry difficult to read easily.
jan
Last edited:
no.
I am expecting them to be able to design a chip-based buffer capable of 110 dB SNR
am I REALLY asking for too much? again, mind that I'm not exactly talking about new comers but a company with at least 8 (eight) years in existence.
since you brought up the car analogy. how about I sell you a Lamborghini which is not able to keep a straight line, task which a Fiat Punto easily accomplishes?
let me guess. you'd likely think... so these guys were unable to make it handle decently, what if they were also unable to make it not break in half while I do 160 mph?
Jan, if I were looking from the outside I'd likely give a similar response. crossing the fence changes perspective quite a bit
I am expecting them to be able to design a chip-based buffer capable of 110 dB SNR
am I REALLY asking for too much? again, mind that I'm not exactly talking about new comers but a company with at least 8 (eight) years in existence.
since you brought up the car analogy. how about I sell you a Lamborghini which is not able to keep a straight line, task which a Fiat Punto easily accomplishes?
let me guess. you'd likely think... so these guys were unable to make it handle decently, what if they were also unable to make it not break in half while I do 160 mph?
Jan, if I were looking from the outside I'd likely give a similar response. crossing the fence changes perspective quite a bit
sorry. CAPS is something I quit a while ago when communicating online
it's not that I don't realize and understand the importance of capitalization, I just don't care that I agree with. looks like everything in life follows a Gaussian curve. just like the guys who don't give a damn about CAPS, they're just statisticsWould be mighty crowded at that top
Last edited:
dont know....should it bother me ?
why I should form an opinion about a guy I dont know, and never will
and only based on just 3 silly facts....sells audio, dislikes switchmode stuff, not a 1. class constructor
so... why did you reply? I'd guess a lot of people read the topic, said "whatever" and moved on, never to return.
the portion of the title in paranthesis should indicate that this is not supposed to be a life-changing, paradigm-shifting, mind-enlightning topic
I'm just uttering something that has been building inside my mind. and that something is that many audio guys know jack **** about audio. yes, maybe old news to you. so I'm a slow learner. well...
What's your point?
Did you *measure* the SNR of a unit you *bought* from said outfit?
Was it expensive?
If it was expensive, WHY did you buy it and not build your own?
How do you know that this unit has only 80dB SNR?
Did you measure it?
How do you know your measurement set up has more than 80dB SNR?
Etc...
_-_-
Did you *measure* the SNR of a unit you *bought* from said outfit?
Was it expensive?
If it was expensive, WHY did you buy it and not build your own?
How do you know that this unit has only 80dB SNR?
Did you measure it?
How do you know your measurement set up has more than 80dB SNR?
Etc...
_-_-
sorry. CAPS is something I quit a while ago when communicating online
I really hate that. You cutting corners so that we must try harder to read what you meant. No. Really. YOU want us to read your stuff. YOU make it easy for us.
jan
But you dont even capitalize your own name Jan I wouldnt have thought it was such a big deal to you hehe.
You must hate my posts too, some of them anyway; it depends on my mood if i'm in habitual capitalization mode, or if ive had a long day.
Some people make crap audio products, this one worse than a mobile phone, but hey the world is full of crap, dont buy it. It IS worse than designing stuff that isnt designed to meet specs like that though. Your example of the DC coupled SD DAC with wideband DC coupled buffer is dangerous, not just bad design. How would that even pass EU regulations? making easy to apply high performance circuitry terrible, or willfully ignoring datasheet recommendations because you think you know better when you dont know **** is appalling, but it wont change my life.
Why dont you tell him just how **** it is?
I wouldnt have thought it was such a big deal to you hehe. You must hate my posts too, some of them anyway; it depends on my mood if i'm in habitual capitalization mode, or if ive had a long day.
Some people make crap audio products, this one worse than a mobile phone, but hey the world is full of crap, dont buy it. It IS worse than designing stuff that isnt designed to meet specs like that though. Your example of the DC coupled SD DAC with wideband DC coupled buffer is dangerous, not just bad design. How would that even pass EU regulations? making easy to apply high performance circuitry terrible, or willfully ignoring datasheet recommendations because you think you know better when you dont know **** is appalling, but it wont change my life.
Why dont you tell him just how **** it is?
Last edited:
[sarcasm]I want to find a cure for cancer, find the solution to world poverty and get my money back[/sarcasm]
what is your point?
yes. I measured it. and bought it. one makes mistakes. also, I think you do know that eventually one gets an idea about how 80 dB of SNR sounds like. don't you know that?
considering that units that cost 1/3 the price have S/N ratios exceeding 100 dB, yes.
why so touchy about something you have no interest in?
in all honesty, this affair made me seriously consider building one of my own.
because I measured it.
I'll spell it out for you. it's not about this particular deal. it's about the fact that in my opinion a lot of companies do nothing but tick boxes. discrete regs and the like. some people are sometimes forced to buy w/o prior auditioning. it's a given.
bingo qusp!
how about problems with TV reception? are you surprised? always thought it was my class D amp with a switching supply. until I switched to a linear amp. can you guess where the problem was?
oh, and discrete reg was... oscillating.
there's a good part in everything.
in this case the good part is that this made me seriously consider building my own and NOT try to sell it to anybody.
ok, I'll answer.
because I don't know of any company that makes 2-layer PCBs in small quantities (one or two).
and because I don't want to realize that I made a mistake while the PCBs are mailed to me.
and because I don't have the money for an very good scope.
etc.
.
.
.
AND...
because I believe we pay the typical 200%-400% profit margin because the manufacturer does the above. had it been about a 50% profit margin? I would not complain.
OMG, so the buffer was rectifying the residual glitches from the DAC and the RF from the discrete reg and broadcasting it after adding some power? haha. thats kinda funny from here in an appalling kinda way, sorry. sounds like the type that would use a higher sampling frequency/clock speed too, thinking its OK because it pushes it out of the audio bandwidth. even thats OK if youve added the required filters and NOT made arrogant rookie mistakes
here you go, its quite incredible pricing, not quite good enough quality for a high end commercial product and there are some limitations, but rather DIY friendly. in the last few days theyve even added flex PCBs, its like they were reading my mind, a project i'm working on is screaming for them and its oh so cool.
Screw buzzword qualification, I want to set the trends lol. what can I say i'm a sucker for tech and flex PCBs are one of the best ways of getting the signal between boards and even output wiring, can you say low impedance, low capacitance custom fabricated balanced interconnect?
check the 4 layer pricing and you may decide you can afford that.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.