Of course we know what accurate means. Accurate | Definition of Accurate by Merriam-Webster
I prefer transparent, both terms in audio mean: no audible difference between input and output.
If amps are sounding different, but have equal amounts of inaccuracy (logic dictates they can't be completely accurate), they produce different kind of audible artefacts that coincidentally have an equaly detrimental effect on the listening experience. Those effects can be different of course
The sound of two SS amplifiers of the same class operating at low volume (I insist on that) is impossible to differences . It is very easy to make an A-B comparison with an inverter key commanded by relay´s and a 12 volt source. On one occasion we compared a monster of the 70s, the Sansui 9090 with the Nad 3020. No one of the meeting attendees guessed which one was working when we operated the relay. But when he asked to turn up the volume, things began to change.... ! 
One of them won, what was it and what do they attribute it to? I leave to you the restlessness, I would like to hear opinions of why you would favor one or the other ...........
I leave the specs, THD Sansui 0.2%, THD Nad 0.02% (ten times less)
Sansui 9090 - Manual - AM/FM Stereo Receiver - HiFi Engine
NAD 3020 - Manual - Stereo Integrated Amplifier - HiFi Engine
One of them won, what was it and what do they attribute it to? I leave to you the restlessness, I would like to hear opinions of why you would favor one or the other ...........
I leave the specs, THD Sansui 0.2%, THD Nad 0.02% (ten times less)
Sansui 9090 - Manual - AM/FM Stereo Receiver - HiFi Engine
NAD 3020 - Manual - Stereo Integrated Amplifier - HiFi Engine
Last edited:
But how do we determine if that is the case in terms of an amplifier?
Of course. That is the point i was trying to make. Given this logic, there are few if any truly transparent amplifiers. They can get very good, but we still have a ways to go.
dave
And what does commenting on amplifiers have to do with selling speaker drivers to diyers?
dave
Those are meaningless numbers.
dave
Your comments on amplifiers reflect your preference for a certain kind of amplifier often perceived to be a good match for the kind of speakers you sell. In addition, your comments that we have a long way to go re accuracy of amplifiers are highly questionable, no matter how many times you repeat them.
I don’t think it’s preference vs accuracy.
Seasoned audiophiles know that certain group of the recordings sound great with certain type of equipments, but the same recordings sound questionable with the other type of equipments. I don’t think it’s a preference. For example, a low output impedance digital amp with tight sub woofer may sound great for Drake or Cardi B, but the same system should be too tight for classic BlueNote recordings. This is why accuracy is somewhat meaningless in Audiophile world. The mastering and recording engineers has been finalizing masters with their far from accurate playback systems, and expected listening environment is diverse.
Of course, there are more versatile equipments and less versatile equipments, but I don’t think we should call one is “more accurate” than the other. It might be fair to call a versatile equipment “more accurate”, but it is probably just an “average” equipment in reality.
Well, this is a good reason to tell your wife why you have to make another amp and speaker, isn’t it?
Seasoned audiophiles know that certain group of the recordings sound great with certain type of equipments, but the same recordings sound questionable with the other type of equipments. I don’t think it’s a preference. For example, a low output impedance digital amp with tight sub woofer may sound great for Drake or Cardi B, but the same system should be too tight for classic BlueNote recordings. This is why accuracy is somewhat meaningless in Audiophile world. The mastering and recording engineers has been finalizing masters with their far from accurate playback systems, and expected listening environment is diverse.
Of course, there are more versatile equipments and less versatile equipments, but I don’t think we should call one is “more accurate” than the other. It might be fair to call a versatile equipment “more accurate”, but it is probably just an “average” equipment in reality.
Well, this is a good reason to tell your wife why you have to make another amp and speaker, isn’t it?
How can the amplifier be transparent, or without coloration if it drives the whole speaker?
DF, phase changes, output vs induction and capacitance, ability to drive multiple signals, it will all have its effects on the sound output, it cannot be transparent, never.
An amplifier is a flawed imperfect device corrected with feedback which drives another flawed device in a non-ideal room. Just the microphone has a LOT of coloration, so the recording is itself colored by the choice of microphone and room. If it sounds without coloration your amplifier lacks resolution.
I find the more high-resolution the sound becomes the more apparent the type of microphone used becomes, it is amazing that imperfect drivers can reveal the type of microphone used in the recording.
DF, phase changes, output vs induction and capacitance, ability to drive multiple signals, it will all have its effects on the sound output, it cannot be transparent, never.
An amplifier is a flawed imperfect device corrected with feedback which drives another flawed device in a non-ideal room. Just the microphone has a LOT of coloration, so the recording is itself colored by the choice of microphone and room. If it sounds without coloration your amplifier lacks resolution.
I find the more high-resolution the sound becomes the more apparent the type of microphone used becomes, it is amazing that imperfect drivers can reveal the type of microphone used in the recording.
Meaningless ..... then everything is the same in THD?
Is it the same if it is 0.0001 than 10%?
As long as the speaker distortion does not pass, you say?
That makes sense, an average amp is probably accurate enough to be able to play all kinds of music well
I substituted amp for equipment Community should arrange a scientific test event, to find out if there are audible differences between well-constructed amplifiers. Probably in USA since so many members there. circumstances should be decided by vote. If subjects can hear differences - Maybe a microphone and a computerprogram will can detect and show it too?
I have started to doubt my hearing since I read so many places that all amps sound the same. What does that mean?
1. Does it mean any amplifier with adequate power for a certain soundpressure sound the same - regardless of which speaker is connected?
2. Does it include preamp circuit? - Cause to me, pressing direct/tonedefeat always change the sound very clearly. - Even when controls are set to neutral.
3. Does it mean that all amplifier topologies sound identical when perfectly executed for uncolored presentation?
I feel I can sometimes hear a difference. I heard an Electrokompagniet years ago. That sounded really really good. I had a Samick something 4000. All sounded much clearer compared to the mid-fi I was used to. I heard two Luxman from early 80ies. Both sounded awesome. - Like there were a Luxman sound? Both said Duo Beta or something on the front. One was pre-power. I upgraded to XTZ a100d3. That was the only time I experienced background "turn blacker" I wonder whose design its based on.
I dont know what to think, cause all of this could be a result of imagination? Maybe all the amps I mentioned were deliberately coloring the sound. Anyways - Audio is a nice hobby
Cheers!
I have started to doubt my hearing since I read so many places that all amps sound the same. What does that mean?
1. Does it mean any amplifier with adequate power for a certain soundpressure sound the same - regardless of which speaker is connected?
2. Does it include preamp circuit? - Cause to me, pressing direct/tonedefeat always change the sound very clearly. - Even when controls are set to neutral.
3. Does it mean that all amplifier topologies sound identical when perfectly executed for uncolored presentation?
I feel I can sometimes hear a difference. I heard an Electrokompagniet years ago. That sounded really really good. I had a Samick something 4000. All sounded much clearer compared to the mid-fi I was used to. I heard two Luxman from early 80ies. Both sounded awesome. - Like there were a Luxman sound? Both said Duo Beta or something on the front. One was pre-power. I upgraded to XTZ a100d3. That was the only time I experienced background "turn blacker" I wonder whose design its based on.
I dont know what to think, cause all of this could be a result of imagination? Maybe all the amps I mentioned were deliberately coloring the sound. Anyways - Audio is a nice hobby
Cheers!
Last edited:
No, just that collapsed single numbers are next to meaningless.
Where you draw the line is completely dependent on the execution, where the harmonics stand before they are collapsed, and where the amp is measured (usually loaded with an R).
It could be the case that an amp that measures 10% at full rated power will smoke an amplifier that measures order of magnitudes less measured at the same full power.
And everything goes ou tthe window when you hook it up to a speaker. There is a Dutch site that has measures of low measured distortion amp (SS PP) vrs much higher measured higher measured distortion amp (Tube SE), but when those amps are connected to the speaker (a big horn w FE206), the total measured distortion was less with the SE amp.
Again, collapsed single number THD is a useless specification and should be ignored.
dave
The guys that say amps all sound the same, likely either have low resolution ancillary gear, or they have poor hearing acuity/training and are just missing the differences.
Everythin gin the chain should be included, but a oreamp usually works into a well defined and “easy” load, but as soon as you hook up a speaker things go for a crap. If amp output mpedance is high, the FR starts to be affected by the impedance of the speaker, and if a low output impedance, will suffer from EMF gettin gback into the amp and potentially really scrrwing things up.
Highly unlikely.
Do you use it in the Class A or the Class AB mode?
dave
Who are these mythical guys that say such things? This is hilarious. Or was it just an excuse to repeat a tired old narrative
No I haven't, that's pure FUDmongering now Dave, it's like you can't help yourself
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.