Could be, but that's why one uses statistics, to quantify the probability. In the case of Tom's test, the chances of a positive result being luck would be somewhat less than 5%. If I were putting up $1,000,000, I'd want the probabilities to be tighter, but for a test like this, I think a 95+% chance of accuracy is sufficient.
completely OT and just out of curiosity, how far apart are you two?? (no need any longer to stay on topic is there?)
Sweet mary mother of god and sweet joseph not father of god, you mean you guys not only participate in a long cable thread, you also go hammer and tong in a cable burn in thread??
Bloody hell. Dunno whether to admire you or not.
Hmm, 'I don't think cable burn in makes a difference, any input?'...has a nice ring to it I must admit.
Actually I'm tempted to start a thread: "I don't think DACs and ADCs, pre and power amps, support platforms, rocks, cable elevators, or cables make a difference, any input ...?"
But on second thoughts, I probably shouldn't 😎
You need better cables. 😀
😉
I would love to hear your cables, perhaps I will then understand the negativity. 😀
There was a time-and not long ago-when some said that they need to know the system and room very well for a test,you and others claimed that if there are differences the listener would/should be able to pick them up just as easily,and that what they were saying was just excuses.What has now changed?Is it because Tom HAS to take the test at any cost-even that of the pride of the non-believers-by being "patient" with Tom,or is it that,depending on who the listener is,some of us just can't hold their biases from coming out?How did you and others know that others were not sincere in their comments about familiar systems and rooms?
your point was not quite clear Panikos,but I'm pretty sure I got the gist..
If someone has the balls to do the test then surely it behooves them to make it as passable as possible.
even with say encoders, sometimes the artifacts are only readily apparent on certain music selections, then surely (if you want to test for artifact audibility) it pays to choose the correct music?
Same deal here, Tom is certain he can hear between different cables, then a) he can do it on the system and room he is most familiar with and even b) find pieces of music (or even sections of music) that most highlight any differences he can hear.
Nothing wrong at all in maximising your chances. Unless I did completely misread your post.
Precisely. It's worthwhile to remove all possible excuses in advance, though the creativity of the Superiors in post hoc rationalization is infinite. Unlike some of the foolish and malevolent posters in this thread, Tom is honest enough, I firmly believe, to reconsider his beliefs if the null hypothesis is supported.
I can only hope that the opposite is also true, and if the null hypothesis is falsified, my skeptical brethren will likewise reconsider theirs.
Sorry, I never said that. You're making things up.
We agree in all your points.It is just that "bias" in favor/against people, members of the same forum that bothers me🙂I sincerely🙂)) wish I'm wrong.
As for Tom?Of cource we all should admire his decision.
sorry panikos, but I have missed exactly what the 'bias' is in the last few posts.
could you clarify?
could you clarify?
...and then there's the capacitor burn-in and resistor directionality threads etc etc
btw, Today's Saturday. I think I'm gonna follow Cal's advice now and go find something else to do.🙂
This Thread Is Going Nowhere
The "subjectivist", "objectivist" argument will probably rage on forever. What I don't understand is why, in audio, double blind testing isn't taken for what it is, the only real way to test the differences (or lack thereof) of a change in some component. Double blind testing has consistently shown that people cannot tell the difference between interconnects with the caveat of them being able to carry the amount of current being transmitted. With long cable runs noise can be injected into a cable which is a problem but can be defeated with shielding or many times simply twisting the wires. I'm not an engineer or physics major but have worked with audio most of my life. I've heard CB radios over some of my systems in years past but with proper shielding have solved the problem. Sorry if I hurt the "Golden Ear" crowd but double blind testing is the only way any differences can be realistically be found. The "Placebo Effect" is real and thoroughly documented. If you think you'll hear a difference you will. I guess that puts me in squarely in the "objectivist" crowd. Until someone can prove the difference with double blind testing, I refuse to believe the difference exists.
The "subjectivist", "objectivist" argument will probably rage on forever. What I don't understand is why, in audio, double blind testing isn't taken for what it is, the only real way to test the differences (or lack thereof) of a change in some component. Double blind testing has consistently shown that people cannot tell the difference between interconnects with the caveat of them being able to carry the amount of current being transmitted. With long cable runs noise can be injected into a cable which is a problem but can be defeated with shielding or many times simply twisting the wires. I'm not an engineer or physics major but have worked with audio most of my life. I've heard CB radios over some of my systems in years past but with proper shielding have solved the problem. Sorry if I hurt the "Golden Ear" crowd but double blind testing is the only way any differences can be realistically be found. The "Placebo Effect" is real and thoroughly documented. If you think you'll hear a difference you will. I guess that puts me in squarely in the "objectivist" crowd. Until someone can prove the difference with double blind testing, I refuse to believe the difference exists.
The answer to that is clearly 'yes, they can'. The difference they hear is contextual, it goes away when they're taking part in a DBT. So it seems reasonable to conclude that in such cases, the subconscious expectation bias creates the perceived difference. No expectation bias, no heard difference.
The next question then becomes - which of us normally listens without expectation bias? Seeing as blind listening is a special case, the vast majority of listening is done with expectation bias active, and therefore people hear differences (or fail to hear differences if their expectation bias is 'objectivist'). All discussion about 'are differences really there then?' is moot, best left to philosophers😀
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So... you're saying it doesn't matter if there IS actually a difference, the fact that people THINK there is a difference is valid enough?
If that's the case, then I'd like to interest you in my Goobleheimer Atomization Modulator(tm), which improves sound quality by reducing the effects of stray jabber fields through my amazing new process I call Platonic Osmosis (patent pending). It is an incredible value at only $10,000! (just send me a PM and we'll work out the transaction)
Also, did you know that you can improve the audio quality of your digital sound sources by writing on them with a felt-tip marker.
Nope. What in what I wrote led you to form such a notion? Just show your reasoning and I'll be glad to point out where you've erred.
Bob Carver: "Anyone have a question on cables?"
Frank: "How much difference does it make in speaker wire as far as the gauge of it goes. And also what difference does it make with the metallic composition of interconnects for example silver or copper in terms of the sound. Will the sound be the same or will it be different?"
Bob Carver: "It depends upon how you define sound. It's like if a tree falls in the woods, and nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound? It's sort of philosophically like that. The movement of the speaker back and forth will be the same whether it's a piece of copper wire of a certain gauge or a certain silver wire of a certain gauge or . . . it doesn't matter. But we will hear the sound differently. We will hear it in our heads and in our hearts. And if we hear it better with silver wire, if it sounds better with silver wire, then I'm all for buying the silver wire. My own experience is it's impossible to toss out that feeling that you have when you listen to silver wire versus copper wire, even though I know there is no difference. So, if I listen to it without peeking which one I'm listening to, then I can't tell a difference and there is isn't any. But if I know which one I'm listening to, it's so powerful that I can't shake it. I really can't shake it."
Carver --> YouTube
a physicist and engineer (with more patents than Nelson Pass?!? . . . at 15) who knows something about null testing (i.e. Stereophile shootout)
Carver --> Wikipedia
Frank: "How much difference does it make in speaker wire as far as the gauge of it goes. And also what difference does it make with the metallic composition of interconnects for example silver or copper in terms of the sound. Will the sound be the same or will it be different?"
Bob Carver: "It depends upon how you define sound. It's like if a tree falls in the woods, and nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound? It's sort of philosophically like that. The movement of the speaker back and forth will be the same whether it's a piece of copper wire of a certain gauge or a certain silver wire of a certain gauge or . . . it doesn't matter. But we will hear the sound differently. We will hear it in our heads and in our hearts. And if we hear it better with silver wire, if it sounds better with silver wire, then I'm all for buying the silver wire. My own experience is it's impossible to toss out that feeling that you have when you listen to silver wire versus copper wire, even though I know there is no difference. So, if I listen to it without peeking which one I'm listening to, then I can't tell a difference and there is isn't any. But if I know which one I'm listening to, it's so powerful that I can't shake it. I really can't shake it."
Carver --> YouTube
a physicist and engineer (with more patents than Nelson Pass?!? . . . at 15) who knows something about null testing (i.e. Stereophile shootout)
Carver --> Wikipedia
I'd like to throw something else into this discussion. I am certain that cables make a difference. What I struggle to understand is the effect that mains cables have on the system. I mean power travels for miles and through transformers, various fuses etc, ends up in your home through your fuse box. When you put a decent meter of cable to your Hi Fi, it makes an incredible difference.
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