😀I must say this is quite amusing. But putting a resistor in series with a speaker changes the total impedance curve, thus changes the response of the amplifier. Simple thing, but I really liked the way he talked. I do wonder how he did the null testing. Hafler has a null difference test to adjust the XL-280, I was never able to get that to totally null.
It's not a subjectivist/objectivist argument.
There would be no argument between objectivists and true subjectivists.
That's because true subjectivists simply accept their subjective experience for what it is and don't try and pass it off as anything else. And in not doing so, there is nothing for any objectivist to take issue with.
The argument is between objectivists and those who try and pass off their subjective experiences as more than that and in doing so effectively make objective claims but who refuse to substantiate those objective claims with objective proof.
So please, don't frame this as an objectivist/subjectivist issue. It's not.
se
Yes, if you extend 'expectastion bias' to 'perception factors'. There's more than just expectation: peer pressure, cost of item, color/shape of item, what you had for lunch, past experiences, you name it.
None of us. It's innate and beyond our control; we have no access to that process.
jd
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A friend once performed a simple blind testing on me
It was between two CD players
My high quality player, and a cheap 100USD DVD he had for fun
In the beginning it was really easy to hear the difference
But it became more and more difficult
In the end everything just sounded really bad, and I couldnt hear much at all
To judge between the two players became an intellectual evaluation
Thoughts like, "could this player do that" etc
But listening was no longer possible at this point
Just a strange experience
It was between two CD players
My high quality player, and a cheap 100USD DVD he had for fun
In the beginning it was really easy to hear the difference
But it became more and more difficult
In the end everything just sounded really bad, and I couldnt hear much at all
To judge between the two players became an intellectual evaluation
Thoughts like, "could this player do that" etc
But listening was no longer possible at this point
Just a strange experience
I've often had the same experience in sighted tests comparing dry audio feeds to a cleanly compressed version. After a few flips back and forth, even with imperfect level matching, differences became hard to hear. That's why I no longer set up on-air broadcast processing that way, preferring longer term acclimation, unless the change is suitably coarse.
After spending hours building and testing a headphone amplifier I'd gotten to the point where I could hear the difference when I replaced a transistor trying to diagnose some problem.
The real question was, which one was more "correct?" Which one did I like more? Was I going to spend weeks changing out each of the 32 transistors with ones from different batches to get the particular sound I wanted? Worse, was I going to make multiple orders of transistors, some from ammo, some bulk, etc. to get different batches to work with? Maybe a particular transistor sounded better in one place than in another and vice versa. Hell, maybe I should order batches of power transistors and a bunch of different heat sinks and different compounds to see what sounds better there.
I have a friend sending me a $650 pair of headphones because they are "too neutral" for him.
Can we hear a difference between cables? Given a long enough run and enough power we will reach a point where different cables will definitely sound different due to the physics of it all, but which one is more "correct?"
Consider the price and the potential increase in performance, I'm pretty sure we can all find other places to put that money to improve the sounds we hear.
For my money it goes in the amplifier. Someone who owned a large pair of electrostatics powered with an AdCom amp raved about the sound of my Infinitys that I picked up from Circuit City which I happened to power with a hand me down McIntosh amp which could be had on eBay for the price of an expensive pair of cables.
The real question was, which one was more "correct?" Which one did I like more? Was I going to spend weeks changing out each of the 32 transistors with ones from different batches to get the particular sound I wanted? Worse, was I going to make multiple orders of transistors, some from ammo, some bulk, etc. to get different batches to work with? Maybe a particular transistor sounded better in one place than in another and vice versa. Hell, maybe I should order batches of power transistors and a bunch of different heat sinks and different compounds to see what sounds better there.
I have a friend sending me a $650 pair of headphones because they are "too neutral" for him.
Can we hear a difference between cables? Given a long enough run and enough power we will reach a point where different cables will definitely sound different due to the physics of it all, but which one is more "correct?"
Consider the price and the potential increase in performance, I'm pretty sure we can all find other places to put that money to improve the sounds we hear.
For my money it goes in the amplifier. Someone who owned a large pair of electrostatics powered with an AdCom amp raved about the sound of my Infinitys that I picked up from Circuit City which I happened to power with a hand me down McIntosh amp which could be had on eBay for the price of an expensive pair of cables.
Quote:
Originally Posted by event horizon
Hi Frank, i'd say that it'd be impossible
I always think about it like this. When we are children we are taught about all sorts of things. Take colours for instance We can all agree that red is red (unless we are colour blind) & blue is blue, green is green etc...
However there is absolutely no way we can prove we are seeing the same thing at all. What i know to be red might look totally different to someone else, but they were told that that colour is called "red" as a child so they'll call it red to.
Doesn't mean that they see anything like what i see, they just know the name of that colour
Over & out...
Mark.
It logically follows that there is no way we could prove that we all hear the same thing 😉 We already know that our hearing loses high frequency content as we get older & yet there appear to be some bat people out there that can hear well into the 20KHz range into middle age.
Now i'm not going to bang on about audio cables as i'm not the kind of person to spend ridiculous money on any cable, as long as it gives adequate shielding from interference & doesn't fall to bits it's good enough for me. Where i did spend a bit was on digital cabling as as far as i'm concerned i did hear differences between digital cables & connectors (which was mentioned further back in this monumental thread) 😀
The differences i heard could well be down to timing or jitter issues which would give rise to distortion in the time domain. I experimented with a few cables, i started off with a decent homemade cable using accurate 75ohm cable with phonos using the SPDIF connectors. I then purchased a cheap lap screened midi cable (accurate 110ohm) & used XLR connectors & was stunned by the difference. Was i expecting it, using cable so cheap i'd only buy it for a test? No!
Soon after that i bought some better stuff to connect it all up but with foil & woven braid screening etc, again balanced 110ohm cable & have been happy ever since.
So i'd say cables do indeed make a difference, with digital signals at any rate 😉
Bests, Mark.
Originally Posted by event horizon
Hi Frank, i'd say that it'd be impossible
I always think about it like this. When we are children we are taught about all sorts of things. Take colours for instance We can all agree that red is red (unless we are colour blind) & blue is blue, green is green etc...
However there is absolutely no way we can prove we are seeing the same thing at all. What i know to be red might look totally different to someone else, but they were told that that colour is called "red" as a child so they'll call it red to.
Doesn't mean that they see anything like what i see, they just know the name of that colour
Over & out...
Mark.
Hi jd, my point was that there is no proof & never can be (until brains get linked together - possibly) that we see the same things as each other.
It logically follows that there is no way we could prove that we all hear the same thing 😉 We already know that our hearing loses high frequency content as we get older & yet there appear to be some bat people out there that can hear well into the 20KHz range into middle age.
Now i'm not going to bang on about audio cables as i'm not the kind of person to spend ridiculous money on any cable, as long as it gives adequate shielding from interference & doesn't fall to bits it's good enough for me. Where i did spend a bit was on digital cabling as as far as i'm concerned i did hear differences between digital cables & connectors (which was mentioned further back in this monumental thread) 😀
The differences i heard could well be down to timing or jitter issues which would give rise to distortion in the time domain. I experimented with a few cables, i started off with a decent homemade cable using accurate 75ohm cable with phonos using the SPDIF connectors. I then purchased a cheap lap screened midi cable (accurate 110ohm) & used XLR connectors & was stunned by the difference. Was i expecting it, using cable so cheap i'd only buy it for a test? No!
Soon after that i bought some better stuff to connect it all up but with foil & woven braid screening etc, again balanced 110ohm cable & have been happy ever since.
So i'd say cables do indeed make a difference, with digital signals at any rate 😉
Bests, Mark.
Hi,
The problem is that it is often de facto stated here as if whenever someone plugs in a different set of cables there is automatically going to be a bias generated that will make you expect it to sound better than the previous one.
I just do not agree with that at all.
In the same manner as if something more expensive must per definition be better than something cheaper, etc.
Cheers, 😉
The problem is that it is often de facto stated here as if whenever someone plugs in a different set of cables there is automatically going to be a bias generated that will make you expect it to sound better than the previous one.
I just do not agree with that at all.
In the same manner as if something more expensive must per definition be better than something cheaper, etc.
Cheers, 😉
I am going to point out a likely scenario, that will happen in future. Someone, normally self-confident in his listening ability and capability, does a 'true double blind test' certified by a PhD who presides on the test as it is carried on, to prevent 'peeking', 'sneaking', or any subtle or unsubtle form of extraneous clue from giving even the most minor advantage.
From experience and history of such DB tests, there might be some initial differences that appear, but with repetition, they will be lost in the 'confusion' over multiple tries.
In other words, the guy won't be able to tell 'Live from Memorex' as Ella Fitzgerald could not, many decades ago. Test done and published.
Now, test subject returns to his hi fi system and differences appear to return, but he is expected to ignore them, as they are only as real as his imagination, and that is all.
From experience and history of such DB tests, there might be some initial differences that appear, but with repetition, they will be lost in the 'confusion' over multiple tries.
In other words, the guy won't be able to tell 'Live from Memorex' as Ella Fitzgerald could not, many decades ago. Test done and published.
Now, test subject returns to his hi fi system and differences appear to return, but he is expected to ignore them, as they are only as real as his imagination, and that is all.
Certainly reading reviews would tend to lead one to that conclusion, especially when there's a considerable difference in price.
se
Hey, anyone aware of cable research that might blow open this whole "cables make no audible difference myth"? Maybe new cable models coming out in 2011 or 2047.
I do not want to get caught with my pants down on this.
I do not want to get caught with my pants down on this.
I agree, that automatic assumption is not necessarily correct. That's why I said that this term should be supplemented or replaced by 'perception' in some form. The point is that the perception process automatically, without us being aware of it as it happens, takes into account lots of other things in addition to whatever hits your eardrums. And expection bias is only one of those additional factors. So it's not always automatically that you 'perceive' a new cable as better because you're supposed to have this positive expection bias. The point is that you cannot be sure that your perception accurately reflects the audible differences (if any) because you are not aware of all the other factors which are involved and how they nudge the perception this way or that way.
And that goes for all of us.
jd
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You are getting it John, bit by bit!
No, why should he be 'expected to ignore them'? If he is a mature, educated person he will realize what has been going on and accept that that's the way it is. Hopefully he will continue to enjoy his audio system, and enjoy getting new amps and cables and what have you.
jd
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Like I said, if Tom backs out (unlikely), you're next in the tumbrel. Drop me an email, we'll talk about what and how.
Just to be clear, my question was directed specifically toward rdf, who hasn't put himself to the test- nor seemed willing to go through the effort and expense of testing someone else. It's easier to sit on the sidelines and boo than to put on the pads and get out on the field.
Just to be clear, my question was directed specifically toward rdf, who hasn't put himself to the test- nor seemed willing to go through the effort and expense of testing someone else. It's easier to sit on the sidelines and boo than to put on the pads and get out on the field.
Hi,
Exactly.
Which is why I clumsily insisted you either take the person out of the equation or take many persons to the test at which time, when everything's done, you'd still end up with more data about those subjects abilities to undergo that DBT and not much else.
I usually spot a difference straight away, be that at my place or someone else's, without knowing what's been changed.
It's often the same with friends that come to my house.
Yet when you start playing games such as let's listen to ten different cables no one's interested anymore after a couple of minutes.
They start talking and lose focus.
It's a hard job similar to an interpreter in a conference room really. Try it, you'll be exhausted and confused after a couple a minutes. Unless you're used to it or professionally trained. Even then.
Cheers, 😉
Exactly.
Which is why I clumsily insisted you either take the person out of the equation or take many persons to the test at which time, when everything's done, you'd still end up with more data about those subjects abilities to undergo that DBT and not much else.
I usually spot a difference straight away, be that at my place or someone else's, without knowing what's been changed.
It's often the same with friends that come to my house.
Yet when you start playing games such as let's listen to ten different cables no one's interested anymore after a couple of minutes.
They start talking and lose focus.
It's a hard job similar to an interpreter in a conference room really. Try it, you'll be exhausted and confused after a couple a minutes. Unless you're used to it or professionally trained. Even then.
Cheers, 😉
Hi,
In that case I suggest you either do your own tests all by yourself or in the presense of a person that truly loves you. Pants up or down.
After that, when judgement day comes, you, me and thousands of others may or may not be condammed for being delusional or not.
At least you won't have to trust someone else's research, you'll be able to make up your own mind.
Cheers, 😉
In that case I suggest you either do your own tests all by yourself or in the presense of a person that truly loves you. Pants up or down.
After that, when judgement day comes, you, me and thousands of others may or may not be condammed for being delusional or not.
At least you won't have to trust someone else's research, you'll be able to make up your own mind.
Cheers, 😉
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