Neutral in the sense that there is a minimum of dielectric material used, all with a very low dielectric constant, the Litz type 1 weave makes them relatively immune to any airborne RF and you have to drape them across the top of a power transformer before they will accept a 60 Hz signal, just draping them next to a power cord won't do. The use of #40 gauge wire ends all discussions about "skin effect" and the Litz braid, without any woven shield, and a cotton tube eliminates the need for care about external capacitance, like nylon rugs and other audio tweak needs. They don't change their character audibly between 3 inches and 3 meters as interconnect wires. And, the character is a lack of any readily audible sonic signature.
Simon has already offered to test them so we would have objective data to utilize. I am not offering these for sale, by the way, they just come from my own anecdotal research into how cables and transformers interact., or don't. These don't seem to interact with anything, the copper is commercially pure and the other audiophile bugaboos are side stepped.
Bud
Simon has already offered to test them so we would have objective data to utilize. I am not offering these for sale, by the way, they just come from my own anecdotal research into how cables and transformers interact., or don't. These don't seem to interact with anything, the copper is commercially pure and the other audiophile bugaboos are side stepped.
Bud
They are just as scientifically significant as the 95% of DBTs. But they do make you think. I have participated in blind tests with level matched pairs of treated vrs non-treated where the setup was done by 1 person who was absent during an AB test that involved switching from one speaker to another. It was clear to me, on a personal level, that the differences went significantly beyond adding the same amount of mass.
dave
wrong
no it isn't. You said "anything"... SY stated "threshold" and "specific variable"... it makes a difference
This is the kind of sloppy definition that negates most of the junk science that abounds these days.
no it isn't. You said "anything"... SY stated "threshold" and "specific variable"... it makes a difference
This is the kind of sloppy definition that negates most of the junk science that abounds these days.
thanks dave for popping in and setting this wayward thread on a more rigorous path.
See, maybe that's half the problem that made you think you were on a white charger and saving us...and here you are thinking you had the same concept as SY's, and 'lecturing' us on how much Jakob had to hammer a point home.
sheesh. trouble is, you probably DO think you said essentially the same thing as SY. (fyi, you did not)
Ahh. Same as the dbt's you disparage eh?
Whilst you're on this kick, howzabout giving us your evaluation of all the anecdotal cable differences heard. How about you be consistent and help us point out to the cable guys that their anecdotes have no scientific basis.
You can be objective yes??
See, maybe that's half the problem that made you think you were on a white charger and saving us...and here you are thinking you had the same concept as SY's, and 'lecturing' us on how much Jakob had to hammer a point home.
sheesh. trouble is, you probably DO think you said essentially the same thing as SY. (fyi, you did not)
Ahh. Same as the dbt's you disparage eh?
Whilst you're on this kick, howzabout giving us your evaluation of all the anecdotal cable differences heard. How about you be consistent and help us point out to the cable guys that their anecdotes have no scientific basis.
You can be objective yes??
So they are "neutral" sounding....because..they are neutral sounding? 😕
Bud, Simon could measure the effect of the moon and sun on the d*mn wire, how is this correlated to audio?
Bud, we appreciate your offer, but if there is unanimity on something, it's that audiophiles can't agree on anything. They are in complete disarray as to what is good, what is great, let's eat some chocolate cake. One audiophiles bugaboo may be an others salvation.
Do recall that Tom already has wires he can hear just fine. 😉
IOW, according to you, worthless. Ok. (won't bother to ask for evidence of how the 95% figure was derived).
Level matched? You mean average level closely matched? Added mass/damping/stiffness will affect HF predominantly (though not exclusively). So you could have same (or close) average, but different FR. And that is audible. So...???
Ah, so you know exactly how much mass the EnABL process added. Excellent. Ok, how much was it?
When this precise amount was added via process B, what process was this....and how was it sonically compared/tested (scientifically significant) vs EnABL?
TIA
I maybe mis-interpreting your comment (irony perhaps?).
Anyway, the whole point of a dbt is to remove extraneous information (price, colour, mismatched volume etc) from the test, so that if there is a difference to be heard, you'll hear it.
Ah, so you know exactly how much mass the EnABL process added. [/QUOTE]
Yes, i have that data. Within the limits of measuring T/S on different days with different weather. In some cases it could turn out to be negative i expect.
dave
Yes, i have that data. Within the limits of measuring T/S on different days with different weather. In some cases it could turn out to be negative i expect.
dave
What was much more audible is the big difference in 3D soundstage, something not really affected by the FR but an indication of greater downward dynamic range.
Limited as it may be, i do have data, you just have a WAG based on nothing but preconceptions.
Enuff of that thou. This is a cable thread, it doesn't need any help being controversial.
dave
I don't remember asking you for your permission AJ.
The neutral comment is derived from my firm knowledge that only LCR affects can be found to alter the measured response of cables. These particular cables have the least C possible in the real world. Their L is fixed by their type 1 Litz geometry and their R, both RAC and RDC is as low as a cable with similar circular mils of area can be in the audio reproduction realm.
I am equally sure that only LCR can possibly have any audible effect upon an AC signal passing down a wire. My offer is made because this is as little real world LCR as you can get, without falling into SY's pathological classification, and since they should have considerably less LC and RAC / RDC than the test cables that Tom is intent upon using and there is a commotion about a positive control, I cannot think of a more neutral positive control than what I have described. If you can come up with one that betters these parameters please provide us with your choice. And no, Mogami cable cannot be used as a control, because it is as suspect as the cables Tom is intending to use. Neutral means just that, as little alteration as is practically possible for a positive control, either objectively, from Simon or subjectively from anyone who cares to listen to them.
Bud
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That's an amazing comment. There is actually a lot of work to determine and separate the effects. Hat's off to you if you can do it in your head.
Same driver, same mass (within the constraints above), different distribution.
Groundwork over a span of 30 years.
Tests wouldn't satisfy strict protocols, but satisfied me enuff to continue to pursue that goal.
Time to let this thread percolate without me... see ya later.
dave
Groundwork over a span of 30 years.
Tests wouldn't satisfy strict protocols, but satisfied me enuff to continue to pursue that goal.
Time to let this thread percolate without me... see ya later.
dave
Hi AJ
I should know better, I know. Sometimes I can't help myself. I see a child drowning in a septic tank and I just want to help. It's always such a disappointment when you find that they jumped in themself and they seem to like it!
bud, is your offer meant to provide a counter to the ones Tg will be using ?(afaik, he has that already picked) or to be the reference for tom?
Dunno what has been picked as "B' (toms current ones will be "A' I spose) but I would have thought bog standard el cheapo wire??? Now that you have brought it up, what will be the alternative? Sy? TG?
Anyway, my only concern is the extra time it may bring if you (others) pop in with cable offers etc etc.
TG has to do his practice, get the procedure licked and all that stuff. He has spent a while getting a handle on the sonic properties of his new cdp, and hopefully very soon onto the training!!
Have you decided TG (SY) what the alternative ICs will be?
Bud, one thing that grabbed me from your post was 'I am equally sure that only LCR can possibly have any audible effect upon an AC signal passing down a wire.'
I asked that question a few pages ago, to date no-one has answered. Thanks. (Just for the record, the question was 'for the cable believers, is it possible that if you do hear cables, it is a sufficient mechanism that the audibility is due to lcr differences only'? ...ie do we need the cables seller voodoo or not, or is there truly new things that science needs to discover)
Dunno what has been picked as "B' (toms current ones will be "A' I spose) but I would have thought bog standard el cheapo wire??? Now that you have brought it up, what will be the alternative? Sy? TG?
Anyway, my only concern is the extra time it may bring if you (others) pop in with cable offers etc etc.
TG has to do his practice, get the procedure licked and all that stuff. He has spent a while getting a handle on the sonic properties of his new cdp, and hopefully very soon onto the training!!
Have you decided TG (SY) what the alternative ICs will be?
Bud, one thing that grabbed me from your post was 'I am equally sure that only LCR can possibly have any audible effect upon an AC signal passing down a wire.'
I asked that question a few pages ago, to date no-one has answered. Thanks. (Just for the record, the question was 'for the cable believers, is it possible that if you do hear cables, it is a sufficient mechanism that the audibility is due to lcr differences only'? ...ie do we need the cables seller voodoo or not, or is there truly new things that science needs to discover)
Not sure, I was on the aisle side, right side, about 4-5 rows from front IIRC. Then again, I sometimes have trouble recognising myself in the mirror - always surprised by that handsome guy 😀
jan
Though generous and helpful, that's exactly the opposite of what a positive control is.
Here's my suggestion: send a pair to Tom and he can listen to them. If he feels that these are what he wants to use for one of the DUTs, that's his choice. If not, he can use whatever he feels he can readily distinguish without peeking. I honestly don't care which cables he uses, I want HIM to choose what HE thinks will show the non-mundane effects he believes that he's hearing.
🙄
Bud, if you have a spare set available sometime, I would like to have a listen.
What would 30 years change?
A new test would have:
a) A modern test protocol
b) An independent proctor
c) Documentation
All lacking in 30 year old remembrances.
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