Re: Flattened Not Plaited....
Hè, hè, hè, are you telling us that Naim derives his “speciality” from making amplifiers that are on the edge of oscillating 😕 In that case, cables with too high a capacitance make a indeed a huge difference. To me this appears to be bad engineering.
mrfeedback said:
Hè, hè, hè, are you telling us that Naim derives his “speciality” from making amplifiers that are on the edge of oscillating 😕 In that case, cables with too high a capacitance make a indeed a huge difference. To me this appears to be bad engineering.
Yeah, I'd say that anyone who talks cable directionality for a start, and then designs an amp unable to handle a few extra pf...looks like too much supposin' and not enough designin'.
On the subject of rising noise with rising spl, I'd have to say the no. 1 offender would be room accoustics, followed closely by speakers. But that's just an opinion.
I just moved my system to a new room, and I've been battling serious room reflections.
Chris
On the subject of rising noise with rising spl, I'd have to say the no. 1 offender would be room accoustics, followed closely by speakers. But that's just an opinion.
I just moved my system to a new room, and I've been battling serious room reflections.
Chris
janneman said:
I was strictly speaking of the flux capacitor in the DeLorean. No more, no less. If another flux capacitor in existance, I am not smart enough to know about it.
Thanks SY,
I just went and looked up Johnson noise, and found a link on keeping noise low in measurement systems. http://www.capgo.com/Resources/Measurement/Noise/Noise.html Theres a nice section on ground loop as well as thermal noise.
I think while this is a real concept and totally applicable to low level signals, from what I could see while it is proportional to R and F it is not amplitude dependent, and thus not applicable in MBK's concerns. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it's just what I could see.
Chris
I just went and looked up Johnson noise, and found a link on keeping noise low in measurement systems. http://www.capgo.com/Resources/Measurement/Noise/Noise.html Theres a nice section on ground loop as well as thermal noise.
I think while this is a real concept and totally applicable to low level signals, from what I could see while it is proportional to R and F it is not amplitude dependent, and thus not applicable in MBK's concerns. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it's just what I could see.
Chris
It is indeed independent of the signal. It's a thermal phenomenon, and where it's most important is in amplification of low level signals like phono preamp design. Thanks for finding that link.
What MBK hears can have a lot of causes, including connection integrity and plain old amp distortion. Doubtful it comes from the cables themselves, though.
What MBK hears can have a lot of causes, including connection integrity and plain old amp distortion. Doubtful it comes from the cables themselves, though.
Christopher, SY,
thanks for the input. I mentioned the thermal noise with respect to the previous linearity question. Since it is constant I would count it as a nonlinearity but that's just a sideline.
I was curious if I had overlooked some mechanisms other than active device behaviour whereby noise / distortion would positively correlate to signal.
That "noise envelope" can be heard on occasion only, but then on headphones as well, so it's not all in power amp, speakers and room, but either on the source, or from the preamp.
With speakers in room there is some additional uncleanliness, sounds like a cold solder joint, but quite symmetrical to both channels. Here room acoustics is a good possibility, I have aluminum framed large windows that I try to "alleviate" with heavy curtains but can't get rid off entirely 😉 .
My second suspicion is my connectors, some are cheap and nasty. They look clean and fit snugly but I just don't trust them. I keep an open mind about cables and will experiment (on the cheap), but I suspect the physical contact reliability much more strongly. This is why the relay specs I talked about earlier ticked me off. Speakers are biamped and hardwired to chip amps btw.
My system is now 80% DIY, trouble of course is that I could have made mistakes just about anywhere
... I corrected several already. One of the most interesting fixes btw was to correct the order of interference caps-rectifier-maincaps on PSU, and to improve bypass of the pre voltage regulator sense pins - those two fixes alone entirely removed some clearly audible harmonics with test CD tones (!!).
Still no scope, it's fly by night, mea culpa. I'm looking for one already, it's pathetic to do without.
So, things improve, I'm just not quite there yet.
thanks for the input. I mentioned the thermal noise with respect to the previous linearity question. Since it is constant I would count it as a nonlinearity but that's just a sideline.
I was curious if I had overlooked some mechanisms other than active device behaviour whereby noise / distortion would positively correlate to signal.
That "noise envelope" can be heard on occasion only, but then on headphones as well, so it's not all in power amp, speakers and room, but either on the source, or from the preamp.
With speakers in room there is some additional uncleanliness, sounds like a cold solder joint, but quite symmetrical to both channels. Here room acoustics is a good possibility, I have aluminum framed large windows that I try to "alleviate" with heavy curtains but can't get rid off entirely 😉 .
My second suspicion is my connectors, some are cheap and nasty. They look clean and fit snugly but I just don't trust them. I keep an open mind about cables and will experiment (on the cheap), but I suspect the physical contact reliability much more strongly. This is why the relay specs I talked about earlier ticked me off. Speakers are biamped and hardwired to chip amps btw.
My system is now 80% DIY, trouble of course is that I could have made mistakes just about anywhere
... I corrected several already. One of the most interesting fixes btw was to correct the order of interference caps-rectifier-maincaps on PSU, and to improve bypass of the pre voltage regulator sense pins - those two fixes alone entirely removed some clearly audible harmonics with test CD tones (!!). Still no scope, it's fly by night, mea culpa. I'm looking for one already, it's pathetic to do without.
So, things improve, I'm just not quite there yet.
A good source (not the cheapest, but reliable) for a used scope is Anatek. Budget a couple-three hundred bucks for a pretty nice one, calibrated, with probes.
And when you get it, add one more possibility to the list: oscillation somewhere along the line. Though it probably is a connection issue somewhere.
And when you get it, add one more possibility to the list: oscillation somewhere along the line. Though it probably is a connection issue somewhere.
I dont believe in fancy 1k per meter cables or interconnects with silvers wires etc. I believe in Professional sound reinfocment equipment - I've been working with it for 4 years and I saw hundreds of cables, speakers and interconnects - 1.5m interconnects dont cost more than 10-12 bux(I solder them myself, 5 bux for 4 line connectors plus 5 for the cable) - sure we can buy 50$ or even 500$ ones - but I doubt you can hear the difference - buy NORMAL cable, buy NORMAL connectors, solder correctly - you'll have transparent cables(IMO NORMAL cables(low capacitance, low resistance, I dont even take inductance into account) dont affect sound at all). As for speaker cable only thing you have to think of is resistance - it damps(works like RC filter) the signal a bit at high level. I laugh when people buy different cables for tweeters and woofers - they say that stranded cables are bad for tweeters because of skin effect - little does they know, skin effect is applicable at high frequencies(above 10mhz+) at maximum of 20khz it simply doesnt exists...
Human factor... people like fancy things... 1k cables raise your self esteem... thats true... dont tell me its not.
After all they are just conductors. Study physics. Dont Believe in Ads.
Human factor... people like fancy things... 1k cables raise your self esteem... thats true... dont tell me its not.
After all they are just conductors. Study physics. Dont Believe in Ads.
Well, actually it does. But the question is, how important is the effect? And the answer is, not very, generally, but there ARE exceptions.
Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
Konnichiwa
You present a supposition, a thesis, as fact.
True
If, for all practtical purposes wires are linear networks there is no need to produce silverplated cables
Silverplated cables are stupid and expensive - difference between resistance is mere 6.6% - to make my copper wires more contuctive I simply increase their thickness... how much $ you need to increase conductance of yours ???
resistance in mOhms/cm
Copper 1.678
Gold 2.24
Silver 1.586
, cables with foamed PTFE insulation,
PTFE has better mechanical properties... thats it
Cables with a foil
their shielding is better
& basket weave screen
they are more flexible
cables with solic core twisted pairs for longs runs of computer networking cables etc.
twisting used because of differential signal(read the docs) solid wire is used because of skin effect(frequencies are about 100mhz), multicores are used on patch panels, they are more flexible but their electrical properties are worse
So, not only are you presenting a thesis as fact, your thesis is full of holes, so full actually that not much thesis is left.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa
You present a supposition, a thesis, as fact.
True
If, for all practtical purposes wires are linear networks there is no need to produce silverplated cables
Silverplated cables are stupid and expensive - difference between resistance is mere 6.6% - to make my copper wires more contuctive I simply increase their thickness... how much $ you need to increase conductance of yours ???
resistance in mOhms/cm
Copper 1.678
Gold 2.24
Silver 1.586
, cables with foamed PTFE insulation,
PTFE has better mechanical properties... thats it
Cables with a foil
their shielding is better
& basket weave screen
they are more flexible
cables with solic core twisted pairs for longs runs of computer networking cables etc.
twisting used because of differential signal(read the docs) solid wire is used because of skin effect(frequencies are about 100mhz), multicores are used on patch panels, they are more flexible but their electrical properties are worse
So, not only are you presenting a thesis as fact, your thesis is full of holes, so full actually that not much thesis is left.
Sayonara
Well, a little more than that. Great thermal properties, low loss tangents (not necessarily important in audio, but possible), reasonably low dielectric constant, and terrific chemical resistance. Downsides, besides expense, are a tendency toward microphonics, high permeability (in a gas sense, not magnetic), and the necessity to plate copper wire with silver.
Because of the necessary high temperatures and chemical attack of the copper (there's a lot of stuff in foamable fluoropolymer formulations) when the wire is coated in the crosshead extrusion process. I suppose someone out there has done it with bare copper, but I would be dubious about the reliability.
Its good insulation after all(good thermal properties, chemical etc) thats what I ment. Silver coating used to protect teh wire 
Close- the silver is less reactive at temperature. And when silver oxidizes, you still have an excellent conductor at the surface.
The Sega Genesis controller uses a special copper for it's button connections. That is why daisy chaining these controllers is the best way to go. Connect them with bubble gum for a truly impeccable joint.
I hope I am not repeating the same story here.
Referring to the thread title, I agree that different speaker cables provide different sounds even if I still have a question, how different?
Once I visited my college and had a chance to listen to his audio system. He was using a paper-flat speaker cables. The upper frequency sound was sharp and brilliant. The bottom frequency sound was good. But, I felt mid frequencies missing. The overall sound was disappointing. I was wondering what¡¯s wrong. My habit came out. We agreed to try to replace the speaker cables with my DIY toys of silver plated on the surface of normal copper. Yeah, it worked and the overall sound was much improved even if the brilliant treble sound was gone to the mild one. He wanted to keep my DIY cables and I said, ¡°It¡¯s a small gift.¡±
Again I agree that different speaker cables provide different sounds. But, I do not believe that the sound simply improves up to the expense of cable price, the cable material, its formation, or manufacturers¡¯ advertisement. I believe that it¡¯s very much up to the matching among amplifier, speakers and cables. If so, how can I select the cables fit for my audio system from thousand different cables? This is my real question.
I have my new audio system including DIY parts. This time I would like to use a good quality of commercial speaker cables since for the time being I am a bit tired of playing DIY cables. But, I can¡¯t decide which one should be mine. I browse audio magazines advertising cables about hi-end, skin effect, low inductance, silver-plated, tin-plated, litz structure, world best, anti-corrosive¡¦ but no guideline about proper cables matching for typical audio systems.
I might have to blindly select one on my luck? And have to frequently open my wallet for a long course of trial and error to arrive to a still stupid decision? Guys, if you agree on the different speaker cables and different sounds but on the importance of cable matching with audio systems, where should I go to find the guideline I want?
Referring to the thread title, I agree that different speaker cables provide different sounds even if I still have a question, how different?
Once I visited my college and had a chance to listen to his audio system. He was using a paper-flat speaker cables. The upper frequency sound was sharp and brilliant. The bottom frequency sound was good. But, I felt mid frequencies missing. The overall sound was disappointing. I was wondering what¡¯s wrong. My habit came out. We agreed to try to replace the speaker cables with my DIY toys of silver plated on the surface of normal copper. Yeah, it worked and the overall sound was much improved even if the brilliant treble sound was gone to the mild one. He wanted to keep my DIY cables and I said, ¡°It¡¯s a small gift.¡±
Again I agree that different speaker cables provide different sounds. But, I do not believe that the sound simply improves up to the expense of cable price, the cable material, its formation, or manufacturers¡¯ advertisement. I believe that it¡¯s very much up to the matching among amplifier, speakers and cables. If so, how can I select the cables fit for my audio system from thousand different cables? This is my real question.
I have my new audio system including DIY parts. This time I would like to use a good quality of commercial speaker cables since for the time being I am a bit tired of playing DIY cables. But, I can¡¯t decide which one should be mine. I browse audio magazines advertising cables about hi-end, skin effect, low inductance, silver-plated, tin-plated, litz structure, world best, anti-corrosive¡¦ but no guideline about proper cables matching for typical audio systems.
I might have to blindly select one on my luck? And have to frequently open my wallet for a long course of trial and error to arrive to a still stupid decision? Guys, if you agree on the different speaker cables and different sounds but on the importance of cable matching with audio systems, where should I go to find the guideline I want?
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