I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[FrankWW]

I got interested. Did some reading around. My question is what is demanded of the subject?

These folk have done some work.


http://hpl.uchicago.edu/Publications/papers_reprints/beilock_esp2007.pdf

website:

Home Page

 

[fredex]

My question is what is demanded of the subject?

Probably not sports psychology, unless it can be shown to be relevant.

 

[fredex]

..... the muscles tense, stomach cramps and the scrotum rides up hard with a bang.

Ouch!...No wonder these guys are averse to DBTs.

 

[SY]

I got interested. Did some reading around. My question is what is demanded of the subject?

These folk have done some work.

Unfortunately, this was true of the Ravens last night.

 

[AJinFLA]

What's that?
My result with terratec 24/192 soundcard and small creative PC speakers (1" driver):😀

Sorry I missed this Vuki, the thread moves fast. Does that score make you a "hear nothing" like me, or a "See, know, hear something" believer? 😉

Don't stress AJ, I've told you most of my system is home-made so yours should be much better. 😉

But once again, that is not what I asked. I asked, is my system "good" enough to "hear" cables? Is my system the limiting factor, based on the equipment & wiring? That is the question you have avoided so far.

In fact, I've said several times, try for yourself and if you don't hear a difference (improvement), be happy and use the cheaper cable.

The cheaper cable? Now it's price? I thought it was the diameter (thinner = "better")? Which is it?
Are you suggesting that your cables are "better" than Mogami because they are more expensive?

Is strenuous athletic activity, which can stress your body/mind to the point of hallucination, really relevant to sitting in a comfortable chair, with a beer, listening to music? Even if someone keeps asking you questions about what you hear?

And seriously, if the differences are so small that a little stress obscures them, will I be able to enjoy my shiny new cables when I have had a crappy day at work, or my wife is pissed off? How relaxed will have to be to enjoy their addition to my system?

If you are to follow this crowd, stereo listening tests will eventually become an Olympic sport, with similar levels of stress and required training.
I imagine the wire burn in listening competition will be a summer game and the cryo cable hearing, a winter sport 😀

This thread has turned back into a pee-peeing contest. It just will never happen.

Tom may be absent, but I think he's still with us. He seems pretty sincere about testing his belief in a listening only test. I hope it happens, should be a fun event, despite all the naysaying.

cheers,

AJ

 

[Andre Visser]

Ok, I'll tell you, since you haven't figured it out yet. Land lines, Cel and VOI, telecom, all developed using DBT.
Now about you electrical evidence for synergy. Care to present it for review?

Now you know why their SQ is so shitty. 😉

But once again, that is not what I asked. I asked, is my system "good" enough to "hear" cables? Is my system the limiting factor, based on the equipment & wiring? That is the question you have avoided so far.

I've answered that one long ago, how must I know if your system is the limiting factor. I've told you what I think may be a limiting factor and that resulted in you having to fix the two holes in your roof. If you are really looking for "the limiting factor", start at yourself, good equipment only make it easier.

The cheaper cable? Now it's price? I thought it was the diameter (thinner = "better")? Which is it?
Are you suggesting that your cables are "better" than Mogami because they are more expensive?
AJ

Grow up AJ, you know perfectly well what I meant by that, you are just trying to stir. Don't you have anything positive to contribute?

 

[Andre Visser]

This whole stress thing seems selective to me. From what I have read about it some people do much better under stress or in testing and some do worse.

Have you tried to do a blind test yet?

The first one I did, just out of curiosity with two friends, were enough to get me stressed up and resulted in me concentrating on the test rather than listening like normal. It is easy to stand on the side and 'know everything', it's a little different when you have to do it.

 

[AJinFLA]

Of course, sort out your system first (using reasonable cables at least), then you can start playing around with different cables if you wish. You can fine-tune a system with cables, even hide some bad qualities of less than perfect equipment, not that this is the correct way to do it.

The best cables should be those with least influence on the sound but that may sometimes call for equipment upgrades as they don't hide flaws

That depends on the equipment you are talking about, with SOTA eqiupment, you may just waste your money if you don't use "good" cables. Note I've said good cables, not necesarilly "thousand-dollar cables"

It should be very easy to set up a system that nobody will hear differences on, if that is what you want to proof.


A system with more defined and detailed sound, which normally also allow for a more focussed soundstage, will sound better irrespective of volume differences

As said earlier, certain equipment sound good only at one volume level, so level matching become irrelevant in that case



I've answered that one long ago, how must I know if your system is the limiting factor. I've told you what I think may be a limiting factor and that resulted in you having to fix the two holes in your roof. If you are really looking for "the limiting factor", start at yourself, good equipment only make it easier.

Andre, I use a (90's) Lexicon Pre, DBX digital XO and Mogami cables. Specifics, not vague hand waving. Based on your knowledge of "good" systems/cables and "certain" equipment sound, is my system "good" enough to resolve cable details, so that my training on how to "hear" cables can begin? It makes no sense to try "hearing" cables on my system if is handicapped by not so good equipment, correct?

you know perfectly well what I meant by that, you are just trying to stir

I found good silver cables to allow for (is that better? 🙂 ) cleaner, more defined and detailled sound from LF to HF. Pity they are so expensive.

Yes, that price affects what you "hear", along with wire diameter. So perhaps you could explain how price affects sound waves within the sound field? My Mogami cables are not silver. Do they color the sound vs silver wires (less clean, defined and detailed)?

Have you tried to do a blind test yet?

Would you mind posting your score from the Klippel blind tests? My hearing didn't seem to be the limiting factor there. Yours?

 

[Jakob2]

<snip>
My hearing didn't seem to be the limiting factor there. Yours?

If you follow your own line of argument you have to consider your expectation bias to be the limiting factor.

Wishes

 

[AJinFLA]

If you follow your own line of argument you have to consider your expectation bias to be the limiting factor.

Wishes

So my "hear nothing" expectation bias was the limiting factor in my Klippel Blind Listening Test scoring?

 

[Jakob2]

So my "hear nothing" expectation bias was the limiting factor in my Klippel Blind Listening Test scoring?

If i didn´t get the wrong idea you were referring to exploring (maybe audible) cable differences, and so, following your own line of arguments, you have to consider your expectation bias to play a role in the game, totally independent from your hearing abilities overall.

Wishes

 

[AJinFLA]

If i didn´t get the wrong idea you were referring to exploring (maybe audible) cable differences

I thought that was the point of this entire thread🙂.
The question was how. Andre (and others) have repeatedly stated that "good" equipment was required to "reveal" and "resolve" these purported audible "details". Of course, when asked directly whether my equipment was up to the task, the usual hand waving resulted.
Then of course, there is actual hearing (of soundwaves) ability of the listener. Again, the ensuing hand waving says nothing about how to determine my "listening" worthiness, so I thought I would at least put forth the Klippel (soundwaves) test to present some evidence of that (unlike the believers).

so, following your own line of arguments, you have to consider your expectation bias to play a role in the game, totally independent from your hearing abilities overall.

Absolutely. But seeing that I can and do hear (soundwaves) differences in wires, such as the effects of LCR on HF and soundstage, exactly what are my expectations?

cheers,

AJ

 

[SY]

Then of course, there is actual hearing (of soundwaves) ability of the listener. Again, the ensuing hand waving says nothing about how to determine my "listening" worthiness, so I thought I would at least put forth the Klippel (soundwaves) test to present some evidence of that (unlike the believers).

That appears to be a "positive control." 😀

 

[Andre Visser]

Andre, I use a (90's) Lexicon Pre, DBX digital XO and Mogami cables. Specifics, not vague hand waving. Based on your knowledge of "good" systems/cables and "certain" equipment sound, is my system "good" enough to resolve cable details, so that my training on how to "hear" cables can begin? It makes no sense to try "hearing" cables on my system if is handicapped by not so good equipment, correct?

AJ, I've told you I don't know any of the equipment you use, when you talk about pro-amplifiers I'm getting sceptical anyway, I guess you know what I use so decide for yourself or ask someone who can hear differences to listen to your system and give an opinion. A good start is to want to learn to listen. What music do you listen to?

Yes, that price affects what you "hear", along with wire diameter. So perhaps you could explain how price affects sound waves within the sound field? My Mogami cables are not silver. Do they color the sound vs silver wires (less clean, defined and detailed)?

Wrong, good quality cables are not cheap but expensive cables are not always good, you have to listen and decide for yourself which ones work best for you on your system. I've never tried Mogami cables.

Would you mind posting your score from the Klippel blind tests? My hearing didn't seem to be the limiting factor there. Yours?

This is the first time I hear about Klippel blind tests, so I can't comment.

 

[vuki]

This is the first time I hear about Klippel blind tests, so I can't comment.

It was my first time also, but it took me only few minutes.
Why don't you try it and show us your result.😉

 

[Andre Visser]

Do you have a link? I can't get the audio on my computer to work though, but I will check it out.

 

[vuki]

klippel link

 

[rdf]

It would have been double blind if the "experiment" didn't know which students were supposed to be smart and which ones were supposed to be dumb. Meyers' entire point was that the "double" part was missing.

By that same 'reasoning' you also have 'knowledge' of the human capacity to differentiate between properly working interconnects, presumably including TG. I thought that was obvious.

 

[SY]

By that same 'reasoning' you also have 'knowledge' of the human capacity to differentiate between properly working interconnects, presumably including TG. I thought that was obvious.

I'm not following you, but if I'm in the room with TG, switching and sequence will be unknown to me. He can hear it or he can't.

TG is not as swift with handwaving and ad hoc excuses as many others are.

 

[fredex]

By that same 'reasoning' you also have 'knowledge' of the human capacity to differentiate between properly working interconnects, presumably including TG. I thought that was obvious.

If not mistaken I take it that if the test was conducted by Andre instead of SY the results could be different?