Pico-ounce? Did I say that somewhere? I can see picoseconds of differences in signals. Not sure where we got into weight as opposed to time. . . Oh well.
Anyway, I think I see your proposal now. I didn't quite follow at first, so let me diagram things a little bit to make sure I am following now.
Chanel A: [Scope]----[Straight 3' BNC as a reference signal]----[pulse generator]
Chanel B: [Scope]----[BNC-1/2"wire-RCAjack soldered together]----[interconnect under consideration]---[RCAjack-1/2"wire-BNC soldered]----[pulse generator]
Am I getting this right? This definitely has some upsides, but I am not sure if coupling the connectors and the wires of the interconnects is the best option, but it does allow pre-packaged cables to be considered with no modification, which is a DEFINITE plus! I'll definitely think about that some more, but I do like the idea of having a drop-in testing method for . Also, I will have to consider whether the custom BNC/RCA adapter is more desirable than the commercial examples. I am worried about shielding, which could be easily solved by putting the adapter in a "filter box" (it is a small ~3/4" X 2" cast box with a screw on lid and BNC connectors on each side by default--you can get them in either gender), but that would bump the price up a little bit with no real benefit that I can immediately see. The center pin of the RCA/BNC connector from Pamona is pretty good, and the outer machined body is just for grounding/shielding.
I see your point about the 1/2" of solid wire mimicking the connection from the RCA jack to the circuit in audio equipment, but I am not sure if this is desirable if we are trying to isolate cable effects. I do completely agree that the resistive load on the circuit is a good thing since the input resistance of any scope is designed to be really high. I typically use 50 ohm terminators to correct for impedance mismatch and "cable bounce", but I hadn't planned on using these in the audio cable tests since impedance matching is rare with audio equipment. Maybe we should standardize on something, but the time scales where this is an issue are far beyond what I would think would be audible. I guess we will have to do some (gasp!) interpretation of the data for it to make sense!
Either way, this is the type of feedback we need if we are going to actually test things and have people agree that the methodology is sound. Thanks very much for the suggestion!
John, wow! You own an Edison disc player. I'm impressed. Have only heard one (I think Lynn Olson heard the same one) and liked it a lot. By far the best acoustic player I've heard.
How do you like yours?
How do you like yours?
Ah-ha! Thanks! These are not expensive connectors, just stuff from Parts Express. Both the RCA and Banana showed the same effect. Probably made by the same factory.
Will try some vinegar.
Edison player
It sounds pretty neat (as long as I don't let the spring run down, that is)😉
The music's a little dated, and some of the discs have, shall we say, an "aging problem" (don't we all?) but it still plays in all its glory...
Here's the completed part of the current restoration project
i guess in japan, this driver might be worth more than here in the states, eh?
cheers
John L.
It sounds pretty neat (as long as I don't let the spring run down, that is)😉
The music's a little dated, and some of the discs have, shall we say, an "aging problem" (don't we all?) but it still plays in all its glory...
Here's the completed part of the current restoration project
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
i guess in japan, this driver might be worth more than here in the states, eh?
cheers
John L.
Kinda skimped on the fruity pebbles in that jar. You need a full jar for the real effect. 😉
Anyway very cool restoration project. One of the record stores around here has Edison Cylinders but I've never run across a player before.
Sounds logical but .....
"Most audio hobbyists can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that if it doesn't plug into something, or vibrate when a signal is fed into it, then it probably can't possibly have any effect on your sound." From. http://www.theadvancedaudiophile.com
Do people hear a difference when using products that don't alter the electrical or acoustic signal? They do. For examples see: Customer Comments on Brilliant Pebbles Crystals Resonance control
And the scientific explanation is psychoacoustics, which quite rightly includes the listener as well as the hardware. If you don't understand psychoacoustics you will always attribute any changes to your sound to a change in your hardware. (eg cables 😉.)
The Edison disc player used a vertical cut in the grove, like the cylinders. Everyone else used the side to side cut.
Most of the Edison records and players were premium quality. The audiophile stuff of the day. The player I heard in Palo Alto was surprisingly good. Much better than any cylinder or Victrola I've ever come across.
Hey and no cables! 😀
Most of the Edison records and players were premium quality. The audiophile stuff of the day. The player I heard in Palo Alto was surprisingly good. Much better than any cylinder or Victrola I've ever come across.
Hey and no cables! 😀
Simon 7000, I just read through your article on connector distortion. I congratulate you for your effort and your results. IF we could see more of the graphs that you made, put up here in color, I would greatly appreciate it.
No, stay away from may I say.
IF you really want to know what her and her husbands schtick is, well just have a read of this http://www.theadvancedaudiophile.com/ site.
Haha, when I typed 'read this site' I actually missed a letter, the letter 'H'.
Ahh, not always.
Who can forget Jon Dunlavys opinions and 'tests' on cables eh??
Reliable studies have conclusively proven that "audible differences"
perceived during poorly-controlled subjective listening comparisons
almost invariably vanish when proper "listening controls" are
instituted. Without proper "blind" controls, listening evaluations
almost never yield any relevant or reliable information regarding
possible differences between cables. (However, such controls must be
designed to effectively eliminate "listener stress" - claimed by some
who do not believe in the relevance of blind comparisons.)
In attempting to eliminate (or reduce) the effect of such perceived
intimidation, we have devised an interesting "deception technique",
wherein we pretend to change cables, letting listeners believe they
know which cable they are hearing, when in reality they are hearing
the same cable throughout the entire session. Interestingly, all
participating listeners invariably continue to identify differences
they believe exist, even though they have listened to the same cable
throughout the evaluation.
So there ya go, cables do not always have to be in the signal path to make a difference do they.
Interresting.This is almost the same thing I did to a sceptic EE friend of mine.I asked for his opinion on two MC cartridges that I was supposed to swap 10 times.He was perfect in his comments,he found 10 times the "better" cartridge.Only difference was that he found 10 times my "reference" Interconnect.I was swapping cables not cartridges.The perfect blind test for him.Now he is using better quality cables inside his hand made tube amplifiers.Do you think he wouldn't have heard the cable differences if he knew what I was doing?
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dunno panikos, you'd have to ask Jon!!
But I DO want to ask a question....how do you do a google search for 'the longest boring thread in internet history'???
Maybe you ask the guiness boom of records?? what do you do??
IS there a thread that is longer in the entire history of the net??
But I DO want to ask a question....how do you do a google search for 'the longest boring thread in internet history'???
Maybe you ask the guiness boom of records?? what do you do??
IS there a thread that is longer in the entire history of the net??
You don't have to do a Google search for that🙂
Maybe there is something about cables after all,that is why this thread is still alive?Who knows.........for sure🙂
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It might seem boring to stand behind bias as to why cabling does affect the sound of a system to the degree that it does, for most serious listeners anyway. Too many people hear these differences for it to be a conspiracy or just delusion biased individuals.
Maybe the folks that can not hear these differences, simply do not have systems that resolve the lowest level details to allow them to hear what others hear. I do not know what or why, but I do know that after all my years of experience, the fact that the differences do exist, are not disputable. No one cable is perfect for every system or every application within a system. The reasons why I do not know or understand, but they are real, and not just to me. Just as different capacitors effect the sound of a component, so do the cables that connect everything together to different degrees.
It is funny how audio engineers have often sought the lowest levels of distortions, but this did not guarantee great sound quality. The lowest levels of distortion still say nothing about the final sound quality of any given component, unless it is horrendous in nature. The reasons for the audible differences have still not been quantified to an understandable level by all, so the debate continues. At times it is if it is magic for a manufacturer, a DIYer, etc to come up with a design that is truly great sounding and for them to truly know the reasons why. If it were evident, every DIY designer and/or manufacturer would never make a bad or lesser component than their previous versions again. Maybe it is the desire to continue to search for the next great advancement and the lessons learned are forgotten in the continual search to improve circuits, rather than focusing on the great designs and fleshing these out as far as possible.
Threads like this one just reflect the state of audio between those that want everything to sound the same and those that hear differences in all types of components that make up a quality audio system. The debate will never end it seems. Hopefully a degree of respect and decorum can be extended by both sides of this debate, so that it will not continue to spiral into an endless loop with ill feelings towards either side.
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Actually that is precisely the claim that is very much in dispute. Not that you don't hear differences, because you say you do, and that's fair enough, since of course no one can dispute your individual perception.
What is in dispute is whether it is objectively true that the technology of cables that are essentially built the same way can sound different from each other.
Unfortunately I doubt that the debate will ever be settled. I don't think the rip offs by cable manufacturers will end. However, what I do hope for is that those who bought expensive cables (for whatever reason) and thought they heard an improvement decide that the change was ultimately pretty minor, and focus their attention on changes that can really make a big difference, like speakers and room setup.
After all, this is the Multi-Way Loudspeakers thread.
I am probably different from most...for starters I don't actually care whether or not cables are audible.
All I care about is the degree of audibility. And if you are worrying about cables in terms of end result...then you are wasting your time.
PLENTY of more important things to get right first.
Possibly the ONLY time I think you can worry about cables is when you have everything else done, sorted, dusted.
And even then, spend the money you would have spent on cables on improving those other things.
Yawn.
Guess what. I'd put my system up against any other system. Period.
Where does that get us?? No where.
Except your need to fall back to the 'your system/your ears' are not good enough.
Yawn.
Ummm, look how many posts there are.
You STILL think it is not disputable??
(I do note the use of the word 'fact'...try again)
Well, that just proves my point yeah?
You are STILL making changes with your cabling it seems. There is NO one correct cable for any point in the chain. Therefore you are in an endless loop of experimentation are you not?
If you HAVE stopped experimenting, then as you already know there is not one solution, you cannot have the correct one.
And, if you are experimenting with cables, well as I said there are FAR more important things to be playing with.
Let me ask you WHERE on the heirarchy of importance do you put cables??
Can you show us your room treatment for example?? post the in room response of your system??
I would love to know how serious you are about all this (chasing the best possible sound)
Already answered these questions in earlier posts. No new interconnects or speaker cables in about 5 years. Room treated with OC 703 panels covered in dark gray fabric on walls. Corner treatments are ASC tube traps.
Sorry no frequency response data to provide you with. I tuned it all by ear, just as I have always done in the stores that I worked in and customers homes.
Cables are the coup de gras. Once the system is as good asI can make it, i focus on the ancillary items like cabling, coupling capacitors, room treatment.
Setup is at least 50% of the final sound of any system and more overlooked than any other aspect of a system. Speaker placement can make or break imaging and sound stage.
I never said that my system was better than anyone else's, I was simply wondering why so many seem to not be able to hear what a great many of us hear with respect to cabling in a good system. It just makes me wonder why it seems that some can not hear what a great many of us hear. Curious as to why it is so, not making statements to be rude.
Sorry no frequency response data to provide you with. I tuned it all by ear, just as I have always done in the stores that I worked in and customers homes.
Cables are the coup de gras. Once the system is as good asI can make it, i focus on the ancillary items like cabling, coupling capacitors, room treatment.
Setup is at least 50% of the final sound of any system and more overlooked than any other aspect of a system. Speaker placement can make or break imaging and sound stage.
I never said that my system was better than anyone else's, I was simply wondering why so many seem to not be able to hear what a great many of us hear with respect to cabling in a good system. It just makes me wonder why it seems that some can not hear what a great many of us hear. Curious as to why it is so, not making statements to be rude.
Did anybody here claimed anything else?
Of course, sort out your system first (using reasonable cables at least), then you can start playing around with different cables if you wish. You can fine-tune a system with cables, even hide some bad qualities of less than perfect equipment, not that this is the correct way to do it.
The best cables should be those with least influence on the sound but that may sometimes call for equipment upgrades as they don't hide flaws.
Now can we get back to constructive cable discussions please. 🙂
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