A friend of mine was given some LP's in a white sleeve by someone who used to work at a record company.Each LP has the same music on both sides.One side says:"clean copy",the other "dirty copy".The dirty copy is the one they sold to us.The clean copy sounds amazing.There is so much difference to the sound.It really makes you wonder why they were doing this.
I bought them because it was convenient and they were on sale. But I messed up and one was too short and the other had a slightly different, less cool looking neutrik connector on it. The low level OCD in me couldn't tolerate the mismatched connector but somehow the whole idea of keeping them the same length slipped by me - maybe that day I was thinking the shortest possible run is the best. whateva it sounds great to me.
If you like to recall this thread, do your really think that there is a lack of demanded rigor if one claimed to hear a difference between cables? 🙂
Furthermore i gave the same answer as to a similiar question of terry_j, if someone posts a purely subjective opinion, it should be selfexplanatory that you can´t trust him, unless you know more about the way his perception works.
In contrast a test (especially a blind test) is seeking the "truth" by definition; if done by a objectivist, than the my requirements were even higher, just because using proper methodology is the essence of objectivism.
Experimentator bias is much more dangerous than any other. 🙂
Wishes
Sorry for the hazzle, but my question to SY was indeed purely rhetorical as i already did know that "EXACTLY" wasn´t a proper wording. 🙂
But anyway i really appreciate your efforts in this matter (as i know that blind testing is quite tedious) and would only renew my recommendation to train especially the "detection of sameness" part of the protocol. You´ll see that with flipping coins it may happen to listen 2/3 or even 4 times in a row to the unchanged system and that is sometimes hard to detect by pure listening.
Wishes
You're too smart for your own good 😉
Of course I was referring to the lack of rigor by those who do the subjective/anecdotal testing/reporting...
jd
I´d think the aim of that book is more towards other problems, but if we don´t see the listener as a sort of a black box, but more of a system of many variables which we mostly were not able to really quantify than this book might be useful too.
If we see the listener as a black box with an unknown detection probability the problem is reduced to a one variable task, that most likely will be covered in the first part of the book.
Maybe you could help with a part of the test design.
If the detection probabilitiy of the listener is unknown and the experimentator considers the proposed usage of a positive control as a "red herring" , which way could he find the appropriate number of trials needed to keep the risk of error type 2 low?
Wishes
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Yeah, somehow i assumed that. 🙂
But, did the second part of my post doesn´t answer your question?
Wishes
Unfortunately, the only person here who claims to have done test design has only vague suggestions and criticisms and refuses to be pinned down to specifics. When pressed, he has only suggested "positive controls" of things that the claimant does NOT claim to be able to hear (e.g., frequency response) nor are related to the stimulus (which is NOT frequency response).
I'm beginning to wonder if he actually knows what a "positive control" actually is or is just using it as a mantra. I am also beginning to suspect that attempts are being made to scare TG off or have him back off from the agreed blind protocol and thus prevent his claim from being tested- I certainly hope this is not the case.
No further discussion is needed, just to keep in mind that it hasn´t to be the ABX protocol to be accepted. I don´t like it either, but others reported to get quite impressive results by using it.
It wasn´t a straight wire bypass, but a (socalled) high resolution digital version which was downsized by an external unit for comparison.
I would not speculate about the sound quality just from some pics, but this paper does have some problems as it´s results were in contradiction to other studies (which was not addressed afair).
If that article really represents the accepted standard of scientific methodology in audio nowadays, then we do have a problem. 🙂
Wishes
Okay
Excellent point!! Same with the whole mainstream recording industry.
So do tell us again, why should we worry about cables sounding different when this issue seems to be well ahead in importance?
Seems we're all doomed to inferior reproduction, no matter what efforts are made to the contrary. I've ALWAYS believed that the original performance set up and "mix" is of paramount importance; otherwise, why was "stereo" ever touted as an improvement over "mono", for instance.
Excellent point!! Same with the whole mainstream recording industry.
So do tell us again, why should we worry about cables sounding different when this issue seems to be well ahead in importance?
Seems we're all doomed to inferior reproduction, no matter what efforts are made to the contrary. I've ALWAYS believed that the original performance set up and "mix" is of paramount importance; otherwise, why was "stereo" ever touted as an improvement over "mono", for instance.
Yes agree, although I found a hair to split 😀 :
If we accept that ANY 'truth' is by definition subjective (and this is a serious proposition by many heavy thinkers), maybe we should define objective test not as a test finding the truth, but as a test that, when repeated under the same conditions, the same way etc etc will lead to the same results. IOW, predictable results.
jd
Hello Scott!
Obviously this isn't how I'd listen to music for enjoyment purposes!!!! Heaven forbid... 😱
Remember the issue of whether or not people can detect sonic differences in wires is one that is often very emotionally charged! diyaudio is the ONLY forum on the internet I've found that discusses this highly controversial arguement/debate in a rational manner. That said, even here, although it's infrequent, I sometimes notice a belittling, demeaning tone from those who don't believe sonic differences in wires exist, when they're responding to those who of us who do believe sonic differences in wires exist!
Therefore it would behoove those who believe sonic differences in wires exist for reasons other than LCR, to use whatever method ---{that's honest}--- to be sure we can still detect these differences in wires when submitting to a properly run DBT. Afterall when taking a test there's often the increased anxiety that comes when one is asked to perform. Then there's the inherent pressure on the person who's being asked to to pass a test they've been told no one has ever passed in front of witnesses when the proper protocols are applied!
Personally I believe it's assinine for anyone to listen to music while taking a test to detect any sonic differences, they same way they would when they're listening to music for the purpose of enjoyment! These are two completely different actions, with two completely different objectives, that need to be performed two completely different ways. When I'm listening for sonic differences, I listen for specific things, the hitting of two drumsticks together, transient attack or decay of a note etc.
Listening to a song as music provides too much information and I start to get lost as I get overwhelmed with information. Perhaps the reason so many people who know they hear differences in wires, fail DBTs is because they listen to too much music? I honestly don't know because I cannot speak for others but I've now told you what works for me.
Tom Scata (thetubeguy1954)
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
hmmn...
So if you can't differentiate the modifications alledged to be caused by cabling differences while listening to music for pleasure, why does it matter to you if the cables cause a difference? How do you know the differences are there in the first place?
So if you can't differentiate the modifications alledged to be caused by cabling differences while listening to music for pleasure, why does it matter to you if the cables cause a difference? How do you know the differences are there in the first place?
Although I believe in the law of diminishing returns, there certainly is a difference in cables. Whether interconnects or speakers. My DBT is my wife and kids. All are non-audiophobes. They can routinely pick out the difference between cheap cables and a decent set. I think it most depends on the particular set-up to match the cable LCR to the impedance and charateristics of the amp.
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