John Curl,
Mille' has passed. A series of strokes. I spent 6 years learning from him and working with his amazing speaker systems. He thought the 3500 was a good amplifier, but said that he had saved his best for the Alpha 0ne model he brought to market. There are still a lot of those "built hell for stout" amps around, I even know of a pair that might come up for sale, that Rene' Jaeger has on a shelf. They are sublime and capable of 200 watts per mono block. The absolute King of multi stage, tank circuit corrected, feed back amplifier design.
Ltralus,
What idiocy! Can you provide me with any sort of contact information? Do they think the cables are generating a sonic value, with attendant resonance nodes that the patterns are dispersing, as they do on driver surfaces? OMG!
Bud
Mille' has passed. A series of strokes. I spent 6 years learning from him and working with his amazing speaker systems. He thought the 3500 was a good amplifier, but said that he had saved his best for the Alpha 0ne model he brought to market. There are still a lot of those "built hell for stout" amps around, I even know of a pair that might come up for sale, that Rene' Jaeger has on a shelf. They are sublime and capable of 200 watts per mono block. The absolute King of multi stage, tank circuit corrected, feed back amplifier design.
Ltralus,
What idiocy! Can you provide me with any sort of contact information? Do they think the cables are generating a sonic value, with attendant resonance nodes that the patterns are dispersing, as they do on driver surfaces? OMG!
Bud
Whats this? Someone stole my Cable Op™ idea of painting on cables with Elmer's Glue?. Got a link? Oh they are so sued.
I saw and understood the cable specs- what I didn't see (or saw and didn't understand, leide, meine Deutsch ist nicht so gut) is the blinding procedure and controls and the selection of test order. Has there been any sort of translation or replication?
Merci beaucoups.
No, I don't, as long as the experimenter was unaware of the identity of X and did nothing positive to interfere (e.g., the police whistle, or loudly cracking walnuts).
And I don't agree with the "unsettled" premise. No guns to heads, these were guys with the same boundless self-confidence as some of the participants here. Just as I knew when I did my first set of DBT tests that I was going to show those Canadian idiots (Lipshitz and Vanderkooy) the error of their ways, these guys were just as confident. Ooops.
Member
Joined 2002
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
AHH, time to let my fingers rest now!
Member
Joined 2002
Oh, I see - I think...
Yes they do seem to have high output impedances. Can work well with some drivers, like horns.
But I guess I have not heard enough SET amps. (honestly) Most that I had a good listen to were the cleanest, most detailed, most dynamic amps I've ever heard. (for mids and highs) Maybe they aren't all like that. I don't know. Maybe it was the cables? 😛
Very weak analogy. That's direct physical obstruction. An equivalent example in the IQ test would be pulling pens from subject's hands. In your view that clears calling Group B subjects morons while handing out papers? I mean, it's not a gun to the head, right?
You also have a bit of a paradox. I have no doubt that speaker cables at a minimum - and certainly in the lengths mainline sources like Audioholics or Roger Russell deem 'OK' - can generate frequency response aberrations considered audible in the lab purely through impedance interactions. But let's assume they're subtle and not the worlds asunder stereotype. Doesn't a position holding the effect is small or minimal bordering on non-existent argue for more care in DBT testing than 'no police whistles'?
Yup, assuming that all participants are called morons, and the purpose of the test is to actually measure performance rather than compare groups called morons to groups not called morons.
My teachers routinely called me a moron and it didn't seem to hold me back (especially because I knew well that they were morons).
Ideally speakers would be tested blind (and are in real labs). It's generally impractical in the home, but really, how often do we do that? More commonly, we want to hear the effect of (say) a crossover change, and that is very easy to set up blind. And ought to be.
But as has been pointed out repeatedly, the claim that two cables which cause no significant frequency response change are sonically distinguishable is an extraordinary claim. Two speakers sounding different is not at all extraordinary. Different levels of proof required.
Hello SY!
I've stayed out of this thread for quite awhile now because reading cannot, can to, cannot, can to, which is what the essence of most of the posts in this thread breaks down to, over & over again gets a bit tiresome after awhile. You know that I know/believe I hear differences in wires and I'm also a staunch proponent of manual switching as being the only reliable method of testing for detectable sonic differences. SY, what exactly are your suggested protocols? I ask because I'm curious if they're similar to mine.
I find it amusing that you say "Not that any of the faith-based or wire peddlers have actually taken me up on this, but there's always hope." If you remember correctly from my previous posts in this thread I've had the same exact problem. People are always telling me I cannot possibly be hearing differences in wires, yet none will ever come and allow me to prove to them that I can these differences! Like you said SY I believe there's always hope.
I don't really understand why anyone else would care if someone else can or cannot hear differences in wires. Afterall if someone proves they can hear sonic differences in wires are the disbelievers going to go out and buy better wires? Probably not! Why would they when they cannot hear any differences in wires themselves! What really bothers me about this debate is why, why do many of those who don't believe sonic differences in wires exist, need to express their disbelief in a manner that's belittling, disparaging, denigrating etc. towards those who believe/know they can hear differences in wires? Why the need to make comments about like magic or miracle wires, super, or extraordinary human hearing capabilities etc. but, I digress...
Thetubeguy1954
This is why I never got an MD.
TG1954, delighted to see you back! You're still the only participant here who has made a decent attempt to do a blind test and validate your beliefs. I'm happy that you're feeling well enough to participate again.
My suggested protocols were linked a couple of pages back:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ake-difference-any-input-155.html#post1773558
TG1954, delighted to see you back! You're still the only participant here who has made a decent attempt to do a blind test and validate your beliefs. I'm happy that you're feeling well enough to participate again.
My suggested protocols were linked a couple of pages back:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ake-difference-any-input-155.html#post1773558
thanks jacob..I don't think we are that far apart at all except that I am obviously a much simpler guy than you!
For sure blind testing loudspeakers is difficult. And whilst it would be very helpful to hire the toole labs etc, haul up all my prospective choices and do a blind test on all of them, even THEN it is leaving out the influence of my room on those speakers!
Not much more to do than go on living I am afraid.
Does that mean I am saying that (just because) it is loudspeakers that I am not still influenced by my biases??? Of course not. We are constantly and continually influenced by our biases in all aspects of our life..it is almost one of those definitional things! A bit like the statement 'Define bias'.
""Bias. That thing we all have always operating unconsciously in our life. Bias.""🙂
Now (of course) my bias is not your bias. I know myself well enough by now, I am probably biased against the big names, am definitely biased against common audiophile concepts.
So if I saw pair of WW speakers, if anything I would act in the opposite way to the person in the anecdote and judge them more harshly because they are WW! MY surprise if I did it blind could very well be "bloody hell, I picked the WW as sounding the best!"
The point is tho, I AM aware (at least to a small degree) that I am biased. Often that is the best we can ever do in any particular set of circumstances!
Like dbt's with speakers. And the best I can do there is know that I am 'against' the big names in audio, so I could very well be in for a surprise.
Regarding the ONLY way to be certain of audibility of any cable in any system is to test it in that system...(if that is paraphrased well enough) ....well I don't accept that either.
I can no longer remember it, but there was a fantastic quote from david deutch (sp?) that covered this. In the end, there builds up sufficient evidence for one side of an argument over the other that we no longer need to keep that completely open mind, it is an evidence based thing.
We are now (I feel) at the stage regarding cables that if someone wishes that we overturn the evidence then the onus of proof is on them.
I thought I agreed with you completely that yes, the person needs to be confident he can hear the cable in his own system (fulfilled by him being the one doing the test) AND that they get used to the way the test is to be conducted. If that was not clear then hopefully it is now.
And furthermore it has be shown in all DBTs (at least all i´m aware of) that exactly this question for "sameness" was extremely difficult to answer for the participants, even in cases where the differences were above the listening thresholds and known to be audible (see for example the stereophile DBT on amplifiers).
This is interesting. How do we know it is known to be audible?
Little known (I think) is that only one speaker is involved, not a stereo pair. Which makes it even harder for us to test a PAIR of speakers in our own rooms!
Any link to your system bconnor? Sounds like 'my' type of system. If no link, a brief rundown maybe.
For sure blind testing loudspeakers is difficult. And whilst it would be very helpful to hire the toole labs etc, haul up all my prospective choices and do a blind test on all of them, even THEN it is leaving out the influence of my room on those speakers!
Not much more to do than go on living I am afraid.
Does that mean I am saying that (just because) it is loudspeakers that I am not still influenced by my biases??? Of course not. We are constantly and continually influenced by our biases in all aspects of our life..it is almost one of those definitional things! A bit like the statement 'Define bias'.
""Bias. That thing we all have always operating unconsciously in our life. Bias.""🙂
Now (of course) my bias is not your bias. I know myself well enough by now, I am probably biased against the big names, am definitely biased against common audiophile concepts.
So if I saw pair of WW speakers, if anything I would act in the opposite way to the person in the anecdote and judge them more harshly because they are WW! MY surprise if I did it blind could very well be "bloody hell, I picked the WW as sounding the best!"
The point is tho, I AM aware (at least to a small degree) that I am biased. Often that is the best we can ever do in any particular set of circumstances!
Like dbt's with speakers. And the best I can do there is know that I am 'against' the big names in audio, so I could very well be in for a surprise.
Regarding the ONLY way to be certain of audibility of any cable in any system is to test it in that system...(if that is paraphrased well enough) ....well I don't accept that either.
I can no longer remember it, but there was a fantastic quote from david deutch (sp?) that covered this. In the end, there builds up sufficient evidence for one side of an argument over the other that we no longer need to keep that completely open mind, it is an evidence based thing.
We are now (I feel) at the stage regarding cables that if someone wishes that we overturn the evidence then the onus of proof is on them.
I thought I agreed with you completely that yes, the person needs to be confident he can hear the cable in his own system (fulfilled by him being the one doing the test) AND that they get used to the way the test is to be conducted. If that was not clear then hopefully it is now.
And furthermore it has be shown in all DBTs (at least all i´m aware of) that exactly this question for "sameness" was extremely difficult to answer for the participants, even in cases where the differences were above the listening thresholds and known to be audible (see for example the stereophile DBT on amplifiers).
This is interesting. How do we know it is known to be audible?
Little known (I think) is that only one speaker is involved, not a stereo pair. Which makes it even harder for us to test a PAIR of speakers in our own rooms!
Any link to your system bconnor? Sounds like 'my' type of system. If no link, a brief rundown maybe.
Note the word "attempt." There were some gaping holes in his procedure, but he made the attempt and actually asked for some help and critique to do a better one. That's an open-minded person, to whom you ought to tip your hat.
nahh, what I think is meant is that tubeguy is the only 'believer' who
i says 'heck, I am happy to do a test'.
we can not find anyone else..tho I remember from way back panikos was happy to do a test, but geography and all that.
And, IIRC tubeguy would not have you set foot in his neighborhood, so you are out when it comes to tubeguy, and it seems we are all out of luck if we hope to have ONE MEASLY test out of 10 000 posts.
I mean I am happy to do a test and report back, would THAT do as the final determination in this thread??
TG, I too am happy for a person to use whatever cable they want! Go for it.
So WHY do I care? Because me being perfectly happy with you using whatever cable you want is not the same as me being happy when you claim we need good cables, or that cables can actually influence the sound in 'special' ways.
One statement from you is completely acceptable, the other is not without evidence.
oops, SY corrected me!! Still, TG is happy for people to go to his place for tests IIRC
Thank you SY. I appreciate your support. Unfortunately AJinFLA has developed a need to attack anything I say and anything I own! AJ's attacks on me got so bad he got kicked out Audio Asylum when he began making sexual comments about my wife and the Nelson Pass, El Pipo subwoofer! I know and even more importantly AJ knows that type of behavior on his part won't be tolerated here. Like you said at least I tried to test for sonic differences in wires which is more than 99% of the people I've met have done once they've developed a belief about something in audio.
Thetubeguy1954
- Status
- Not open for further replies.