Curly,
The issue here is that if two components are not level matched, you can easily hear differences that disappear when you level match them.
I think Terry was trying to find out if you are aware of this.
jd
Does it have to be knowledge or is belief sufficient? Few had issue with a Dunlavey (?) example given earlier in which subjects, told they were comparing different cables sighted, reported hearing differences even though none were actually switched.
Attachments
I could care less about level issues. That is not what I am listening for. I stated that if you read my statement. It is of little issue to what I am listen for. The things that you find important are of little relevance to me in my listening habits.
Janneman, level differences have little to do with the things that I am interested in listening for when I compare things. I am listening for acoustic clues, like imaging stability, image width, height and depth, tonality. I could care less about level differences, as these are simply volume levels. The things that i listen for are present regardless of levels (at least at the level differences that we are talking about with cable changes.
Too much is made of level differences, which have little effect on the things that separate great equipment from run of the mill audio.
for sure rdf. In that case they THOUGHT they knew which was which (so maybe the operative word is still 'know'?), but yes for accuracy my statement should have included that.
thanks.
BTW, been wondering about this. The last thing I would ever willingly do is spread 'false' data. We all *seem* to take that statement on board...presumably there IS a reliable reference for it??
I get that you could not care less.
Is that the same as saying 'I don't believe that statement is true'?
Please answer it unequivocally. Thanks.
(can you not see where you may be in danger here? Remember, I said that differences are often reported in terms OTHER than level difference. Oh, btw, in that test set up the ONLY difference IS level, nothing else)
I trust what I have learned through my personal experiences.
I do not personally believe that knowing what cable is inserted into the test setup makes any difference what so ever. But I have been in this business for over 20+ years and seen and heard just about every cable ever made at one time or another. I could care less what size, color, construction techniques utilized, etc. I want to know what it sounds like in my system with my music. I have heard cables that cost thousands of dollars that were not as good as cables that were 1/3 the price, in my system.
Little importance to me again. All that i care about is what any new cable sounds like in my system. I have listened to far more than the average person will ever hear, let alone ever see in one lifetime as I was around these items on a daily basis and always had new samples from perspective manufacturers always sending us samples.
If you think that I am the only one that feels this way, you must run in a small circle of audio friends and colleagues 😀 If anything I am jaded to never expect anything but bad results from everything that I hear as I have seen and heard far more different cables and components than the average audio hobbyist will ever be exposed to in one lifetime. I expect everything to let me down as there is a lot of hype associated with a great deal of audio equipment. Part of doing business. Everything is accompanied with lots of advertising hype and fanfare.
You miss the point. Level differences cause you to hear differences that do not sound like level differences. I gather that you were not aware of this?
jd
Anecdotes and personal experience are the least trustworthy of commendations. Human beings most developed trait is self-deception; we hear what we think we should hear or, more often, what we want to hear. This is well recognised in psychology; in essence, we are very developed at bulltishing to ourselves.
That, my colleagues, is why science is crucial. It takes out the personal and replaces it with the impartial. Sadly, human beings remain the same irrational, stubborn, emotional, unthinking bulltish artists which brings me to my point;
I can't believe that such a ridiculous topic could generate so many replies, most of it irrational and baseless. If the numbers don't stack up, all the p1ss and wind won't make it so despite the use of flowery language such as sound stage, tonal balance, depth et al.
jd makes the point, validly, that people hear something that is actually something else. BUT convincing them that they are not correct; that, my fellow posters, is where all the science in the world can lead a horse to water but will it drink? NO!
Frank
Yeah. I mean, if people are not even aware of the basics like the need for level matching lest their perception is skewed, you ask yourself where these people have been hiding all the time? It makes everything they report pretty irrelevant, doesn't it?
jd
I don't know that the problem is unawareness, but rather a feeling of immunity to the same psychological and psychoacoustic effects as the rest of us poor humans, coupled with a perfect certainty of correctness which is not amenable to change or an openness to validation or refutation.
Though admittedly at least one poster doesn't seem to grasp the basic concept of level-matched comparisons and what that really means...
Though admittedly at least one poster doesn't seem to grasp the basic concept of level-matched comparisons and what that really means...
That can be true, but must it really be in all cases?
I can´t remeber having seen a study in what time span that will occur.
See for example the somewhat typical scenario in which two different amplifiers were compared. Normally it take some time to exchange the components and repeat the listening.
From experience i´d say it is sufficient to be in roughly the same level band if listeners are not novices.
Of course it would be inacceptable in any scientific experiment.
BTW did anybody around preference blind tests to see as low a level difference can be to still provoke a difference?
Wishes
Even turning the volume up or down on the same equipment with the same track playing makes it sound different. We react differently to changed volume levels on the SAME music so how could we seriously believe we tell the difference if the equipment and the volume is different.
Same horse, different water.
Frank
Andre,
Have you really forgotten that I often said cables can and do sound different, or do you just not give a heck what people say and are you just interested in putting words in my mouth?
jd
If you do fast switching, I believe it is possible to hear very small level differences.
When comparing amplifiers and speakers, why not turn the volume to zero between each change, then find the prefered level for your ears? Less distortion allow for higher comfortable listening levels.
😉
If I tell what level differences I've heard between cables, even between new and played in of the same cable, I would get stoned. (with rocks 😀)
You seem to miss the point; EVERY difference in volume makes a difference to the PERCEPTION of sound so every change makes a difference in some way. How we perceive that difference is affected by the circumstances we are in; happy, sad, expectant et al.
Again, my point is; unless there is a measurable difference, the difference is in our own heads, therefore, we cannot expect others to hear it too.
Frank
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