THANK YOU!!!!
I didn't know that "out of the black" was just an effect and therefore not required. I'm grateful for this news.
The new project sounds much more live and I thought something was wrong with it.
On this project, the speaker cable is capacitive. Unlike the handmade designs, this is a Mallory model LM332M050C5P3.
Maybe time for some multi-tone tests on the 2 cards in questions?
Harks back to the work of Matti Otala. Some forms of harmonic distortion are much easier to detect than others.
Harks back to the work of Matti Otala. Some forms of harmonic distortion are much easier to detect than others.
Well, that doesn't make any sense, and here's why. . .
The Creative Labs X-Fi Xtreme Music/Gamer "51 Million Transistor" model has those errors. And yes, the Creative Labs soft-eq can partially compensate, unfortunately introducing yet another sort of error into the output of the Creative Labs product in order to cover up the first error.
This isn't related to your sound card at all.
Gary Pimm built a great front end for this card and I think did a little other work. Makes for wonderful measurements. I wish Gary would publish what he did.
The 51m transistor Creative Labs models don't have forced resampling; however, they do have a daffy default. On a new install, they default to their "what u hear" input selection--making some very weird looking measurements until that default option is changed over to use "line" input.
How do you go about using your multitone tests? I made my own after seeing yours - not much difference I used golden spacing instead of thirds. I just used spectral annalysis the few times I needed the test.
The reception of the ear is very sudden when working at maximum threshold, like a noise gate (squelch) effect.
The published response of Creative Labs X-Fi 51 Million Transistor Xtreme Music/Gamer, has droops in output exactly where the ear has trouble.
This was originally given as an example whereby measuring equipment does show the same as is heard, except that the proportions are much different.
Other examples include:
Hearing delivery vans approaching from long distances, despite being inside a house.
Hearing the flyback within CRT displays.
Getting headaches / stuffy ears from florescent lights and some class d audio amplifiers.
Hearing weird noises from CD players that measure fine.
Hearing a fly from across a room.
The sound of batteries charging?
Going irate over the sound output of a very quiet computer fan or hard drive spindle.
Hearing the scratchy sound of a diode or regulator working.
The location of a chirping cricket is never a secret to some people.
A successful outcome from the effort of trying to find the perfect cap, despite no significant difference of the selections.
Perhaps it also includes:
The effect of tuning the capacitance of the speaker cable to the inductor (voice coil) inside a typical full range speaker driver.
I did do something similar with my newer card before I tested it. But I think it was based on an informed guess of the DACs output filter where I originally got the idea in my head.
I thought that I was hearing a slight lul in the FR on my card around 13kHz in 44.1 mode vs 192kHz mode. Sure enough when I tested with Right Mark 192 was flat and 44.1 has a slight lul right around 13k. Really it was a lucky guess, but I have thought that very small shifts in FR can be detected on a DAC. How small and where in the FR you are most sensitive I am not sure - 13kHz might just be in a sensitive area for ambiance and really I could only notice it on my reference recordings and not an everyday mastering.
But the thing that I find about most CDs is they need subtractive EQ on the high end. So most likely if you are buying a cable because it sounds better or is revealing more details - possibly letting you turn the volume up a little louder - then I suspect it might be because the high end is getting rolled off. This isn't exactly something unique to CDs because vinyl will also have a high end lift from the mastering a lot of the time as well. My old soundcard rolls off at around 15kHz -20 and I think it sounds better on a lot of program material because of this.
I thought that I was hearing a slight lul in the FR on my card around 13kHz in 44.1 mode vs 192kHz mode. Sure enough when I tested with Right Mark 192 was flat and 44.1 has a slight lul right around 13k. Really it was a lucky guess, but I have thought that very small shifts in FR can be detected on a DAC. How small and where in the FR you are most sensitive I am not sure - 13kHz might just be in a sensitive area for ambiance and really I could only notice it on my reference recordings and not an everyday mastering.
But the thing that I find about most CDs is they need subtractive EQ on the high end. So most likely if you are buying a cable because it sounds better or is revealing more details - possibly letting you turn the volume up a little louder - then I suspect it might be because the high end is getting rolled off. This isn't exactly something unique to CDs because vinyl will also have a high end lift from the mastering a lot of the time as well. My old soundcard rolls off at around 15kHz -20 and I think it sounds better on a lot of program material because of this.
Please expand on this as it still makes no sense.
Ditto for this.
People may or may not be able to hear these things: some of them are obvious and easily detectable. Some of them are weird and I will call B.S. on later. But none of them are possibly attributable to a hearing threshold difference of 0.03dB which is what I was hoping you'd actually show some justification for.
Tune it how? And why? And how does this relate to 0.03dB?
This is because they have increased senstivity or aversion to these sounds (in bold). Headaches and stuffy ears are common among people with hyperacusis (increased senstivity to some sounds).
Some people also have dislike for certain sound and get angry or upset just hearing certain sounds, and these sounds can sound much louder to them. It's called misophonia (dislike of sounds).
Sometimes just knowing what it is your listening to can cause these reactions and are called conditioned reflexes. The Jastreboff model for hearing explains this and can be read about here:
http://www.tinnitus.org
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Well Thank you too!
In addition to what you are quoting, I must say, that if you are dealing with one point microphoning of acoustical performance and direct recording, you certainly should not find any black background anywhere on your recording, unless very bad mikes were used. And this is hardly the case when trying to record from one point. Electred mikes are very sensitive, and have extremely low selfnoise, and the best of them a dynamic range exceeding any home system in this world.
I´ve been to dozens of concerts, without ever hearing just one sound coming from a black backgrond anywhere. I think that would have to be in an anechoic room, which no musician I know of, would fancy to perform in.
Recordings of a more manipulated nature, could easily contain such effects, but I´ve just not heard a lot of them yet, but some there are.
I did though listen to cables which, as I wrote earlier, have black backgrounds as an intrinsic feature, which then appears on all recordings, produced or not.
If this is what one likes, one should go for it. But it certainly is not a high fidelity cable, with the aim of uncorrupted transmission.
I´d have to question myself, if something like this will ever be of any value to anyone but the manufacturer. I doubt it.
I think that John explained varying ear sensitivity about as well as possible. I'd like to add that, when at a threshold ear sensitivity operates much like open circuit versus closed circuit--its very definite. Its been proposed that this is an alert/alarm function for survival.
Although the topic is fascinating, I'm not an expert in audiology. You can simply look up the commonly available medical data and see how it can be used for your own application. Personally, I've found it useful to compare audiology data with electronic measuring in the attempt to collaborate electronic measuring with audio.
Since I'm not an expert and you don't need more guesswork, go look up the facts for yourself.
Tuning an inductor is much easier to handle.
Tuning an inductor can make a much bigger difference than a fraction of a decibel.
Inductors include those that you buy for speaker crossover, voice coils inside speaker drivers, power transformers, robotic motors, the inductors aboard computer motherboards and the inductors aboard typical class D amplifiers. Every last one of these inductors makes noise because that is the necessary means by which it operates. If / when that noise is a problem, you can use an RC filter to alter the bandwidth of the noise.
An RC filter is a capacitor in series with a resistor, also called a zobel. Some capacitors are internally an RC due to high internal resistance, high ESR.
An example of high ESR is the cheap polyester/mylar dip cap. These little bubble-looking capacitors can sometimes be used as an RC without an added resistor although its a good idea to add at least a token resistor.
If building a chip amplifier and the manufacturer (such as National Semiconductor) has specified an output RC with a "too much load" resistor value, then assume that you are supposed to couple that resistor to a polyester dip cap.
A high ESR capacitor is usually considered a lousy capacitor; but, as you can see there are applications for them as a "snubbing" capacitor. Its not a leap of faith effort to consider that one can cause a handbuilt speaker cable to become a similar sort of capacitor, and any resistance in series with it then forms an RC filter.
Although a series filter is much less effective than one which causes a load, nevertheless there's a load somewhere in order for the electronics to do work.
You can try out a similar device for yourself and see if you can hear the effect.
Create a speaker notch filter with a resistor and an inductor. This is an undamped inductor.
Parallel that resistor with a capacitor value small enough that its passband is not useful to the speaker. This is a damped inductor.
The first example with the undamped inductor is much as if Bud had hooked up his tube&fullrange system with lamp wire. The second example with the damped inductor may illustrate the difference he made with the Cotton and Copper arrangement.
In a radio (that doesn't use regulated power or battery), you'll notice either an RC (or lossy cap) across the transformer leads or 4 little caps paralleled one per each diode at the rectifier. Although its true that this removes some switching noise from the diodes, its also not the point. The point is that this filter is sized (by value) to damp the power transformer (aka tune the inductor) to both reduce ringing and alter its passband. The reduced ringing allows the radio to run cooler and sound clearer, while the altered passband allows for easier reception.
When applied to an audio amplifier, this is unlikely (not impossible) to increase audio band performance, could be hindersome if the snubbing caps are too large/wrong size on capacitance value, and can decrease the workload (decrease heat) of the amplifier because most are well able for non audio signal--removing non audio makes for a more efficient audio amplifier.
At the power supply forum you can find safer and more reliable explanations. But, I'd like to contribute that, in addition to elaborate measuring, a simple temperature probe can help determine the success of increased efficiency.
Now, there was two readily available examples of tuning an inductor (notch filter and power transformer).
These are the simplest that I could think of.
From the second example, you can see that the RC filter and inductor values need to be aligned to work together.
Just consider for yourself that a speaker cable can be made with the properties of a resistor, a capacitor and an inductor to create a filter; and, that it may be the only filter employed in the case of a single-driver full range speaker that has an inductor (voice coil) as its means for electromotive force. The specific size of the filter (cable) and the inductor (voice coil) must match up in order to achieve effective results.
Its simple common technology and really not a groundbreaking new discovery.
Although it would be a new thing if the Specific trick cables were sold along with the Specific FullRange drivers (aka the matching filters sold with the matching inductors) for which they can work--much better than so many shots in the dark.
Back on track with what you can't hear. . . I'd sure like to explore those "Four Twinned" speaker cables that did do something for an "independent non-audiophile witness" to a speaker that does have a crossover. The presence of this 2nd order parallel crossover makes cable effects much less plausible because it isn't obvious. How do you build a "Four Twinned" filter cable?
First; your calculations are one-dimensional and thereby uncorrect Kubik. Skin-effekt? Show us your calculations🙄
Second; during the decades I`ve been into this game I`ve never met a SS-amp that didn`t perform well with thick massive.
Second; during the decades I`ve been into this game I`ve never met a SS-amp that didn`t perform well with thick massive.
The "out of the black" effect is a dynamic enhancement. Quiet notes are quiet-er. This is a relaxing rest for the ears. It can be good for those who prefer a more-live sound if playback is done at low spl. In that case (low/modest volume), the function is a noise gate.
In addition to relaxing, its a really cool way to remove hiss from LP's.
Ah, back to harping on the cable. . . the speaker its connected to is supposed to matter, and the amplifier can matter too. What was the combination of speaker, cable, and amplifier that, by combination, facilitated this effect?
I just remembered this:
One cable that might make one heck of a difference is the redneck lightening protector. That's an extension cord with knots in it.
It works for ham radio to stop buzzes from power and it works with small audio devices with "wall wort" plugs to reduce buzzes from power.
This shouldn't work on fine audio amplifiers, but it might.
If it does work, your amp would be cooler (at the heatsink where you can measure) and your cord would be warmer.
One cable that might make one heck of a difference is the redneck lightening protector. That's an extension cord with knots in it.
It works for ham radio to stop buzzes from power and it works with small audio devices with "wall wort" plugs to reduce buzzes from power.
This shouldn't work on fine audio amplifiers, but it might.
If it does work, your amp would be cooler (at the heatsink where you can measure) and your cord would be warmer.
Actually out of the black is not a dynamic enhancement, it is a dynamic limitation. Low level information simply disapear in blacknes. It is mostly caused by capacities either in cables, or in output stages such as MOSFETs, which also are capacitive.
Dynamic range is pretty often a misunderstood term, as most people find loud music with a lot of transients very dunamic, but that is not what is ment by the term. Dynamic range is the range between the highes and the lowest level in a recording or the capability of a system. That means if you turn up the volume to what is natural for i.e. an acoustic guitar, then the lowest information sets the threshold for dynamic range. This cannot be higthened by turning up the volume, unless you listen in a noisy environment.
Of course the max. spl. will limit the dynamic range of a system ultimately, but in fact it is much harder to get i.e. a speaker to react at all on very small signals, because of great losses in suspensions, spiders an so on.
Thus compression of music is often experienced as enhanced dynamics.
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