I'm not sure that the multitone test is meant to be "subjectively similar" to real music, just more complex than single tones, and easier to analyze than random noise.
It seems the point that Cerwinsky et al. are trying to make is that a multitone signal can produce objective results that align better with subjective results. At least that's how I read the paper.
Thanks for mention of the Jensen paper, I'll have to read that.
It seems the point that Cerwinsky et al. are trying to make is that a multitone signal can produce objective results that align better with subjective results. At least that's how I read the paper.
Thanks for mention of the Jensen paper, I'll have to read that.
What I think needs to be done is a little bit more control on the test. Test all the variables - Use the same speakers or at least a matched set and test them with a traditional passive crossover, bi-amped passive crossover, maybe a passive crossover that precedes the amplifier and an active crossover bi-amped which precedes the amps.
As many of the possible singal chain combinations that you can get to deduce if the problem is the system itself and not the transmission line.
It seems to me when you use a passive crossover that you are prone to all types of inter-modulation distortions from driver to driver. This alone may make the cables unpredictable compared to a better more stable signal chain. There are a variety of factors effected by these different situations - probably too many to for me to really know or understand fully. But I think the answer to the causation of unpredictable cables is somewhere in those different setups.
As many of the possible singal chain combinations that you can get to deduce if the problem is the system itself and not the transmission line.
It seems to me when you use a passive crossover that you are prone to all types of inter-modulation distortions from driver to driver. This alone may make the cables unpredictable compared to a better more stable signal chain. There are a variety of factors effected by these different situations - probably too many to for me to really know or understand fully. But I think the answer to the causation of unpredictable cables is somewhere in those different setups.
panomaniac said:
This is a great path, multi-tone testing is used in several fields. In the limit it approaches noise like behavior and has a crest factor closer to music than other test tones.
rdf said:
Probably. There is an ISO multitone standard (31 frequencies) that is used by AP. AP even has a utility to set up your own multitone complete with specified phase offsets and crest factor. It's part of their free software and I *think* you can save the result in a .wav .
Setting up the frequencies for a multitone for fft analysis is tricky: you want to select the frequencies such that all harmonics and IM products fall in separate fft bins for analysis. You'll also want to keep some bins empty from any HD and IM products which you can then use to measure noise under signal conditions. It's a great test and very quick.
jd
If these Czerwinski tests now show what people hear we could have subjectivists choosing cables on the basis of measurements.
jd, thanks for the info on the AP stuff.
There was mention in the Cerwinsky paper of the difficulty of selecting phase for the tones - so that peaks were not too bad in the overall signal. Will have to reread that part.
Perhaps the AP/ISO signal has that solved.
Here's some info. AP multitone testing.
http://ap.com/kb/show/60
There was mention in the Cerwinsky paper of the difficulty of selecting phase for the tones - so that peaks were not too bad in the overall signal. Will have to reread that part.
Perhaps the AP/ISO signal has that solved.
Here's some info. AP multitone testing.
http://ap.com/kb/show/60
Excuse Me?
Hello fredex!
Forgive me if I come across as being confrontational. It's not my intention, at times I'm just very direct with my questions or my responses to other people's questions.
Can you please provide me with proof from a peer-reviewed & published article that verfies ONLY deviations of LCR is what responsible for the changes in behaviour of the system? Without such proof your statement is no more valid that many statements made by subjectivists.
Although I'm in complete agreement with you. As far as your statement that any 'sound' or 'effect' that results is a property of the system and not a property of the cable itself, so you can say that "cables do not have a sound" is concerened, provided it's also your contention that the word cable, in your statement above, can be substituted with amp, preamp, CDP, TT, speaker etc. and be equally valid, I can understand why you'd believe this to me be true. "If' I understand your POV correctly, then this seems like a more accurate statement to me; Any 'sound' or 'effect' that results is a property of the interaction of the individual audio components in the system and not a property of the individual audio components themselves, so you can say that "individual audio components" do not have a sound!
I agree that there are those ---{myself included}--- who believe that cables like all other individual audio components do have a sound, or produce a certain effect that can be heard. Because of this certain cables like Nordost's Odins, Stealth's Indra or MIT's Oracle have indeed acquired a reputation based on what they sound like. The fact that their extraordinary sound or effect doesn't always completely follow these different cables around in the different systems they're placed in is hardly surprising. Even the unique sound of cheap audio cables doesn't follow them in the exact same way in different systems they're placed in!
The problem lies in trying to discover whether a wire's sound is the result of the affects of RLC or whether it's defined by a more complex group of affects based on numerous events such as dielectric absorption, triboelectric sensitivity, mechanical isolation, shielding, magnetic & electric fields caused when a signal passes through a wire possibly interacting with the magnetic & electric fields of other closely placed wires, different wire metals used ---{copper, silver, silver-plated copper, gold, silver plated gold etc}--- different wire geometries used ---{litz, helix, ribbons (side-by-side -Magnan) or (top & bottom -Goertz) multiple strands side-by-side (think Nordost) usage of single solid core wire or multiple standed wires etc.}--- perhaps all of these things play their part in the sonic differences heard in different wires. To say there isn't at least anecdotal evidence to this effect, seems a deliberate divergence from the truth to me.
I cannot speak for others but I'm offended at how quickly people such as yourself will claim as if it's a proven scientific fact, that when some people ---{I believe it's another deliberate divergence from truth on your part to claim that everyone has different opinions on the sound of a particular cable}--- disagree on the sound of a cable, it's either in the their minds or we are back to LCR doing different things to different systems!
Please show me some proof via a peer-reviewed, published article that verifies when people disagree on the sound of a cable, it's only because of a or b below:
a) in the their minds
b) only LCR doing different things to different systems
When people make statements like this one you just made or this one Subjectivists claim they hear differences in wires in order to justify the expense of the wires they purchased I often wonder if perhaps Objectivists claim they don't hear differences in wires in order to justify the inexpense of the wires they purchased or perhaps not hearing a difference is in their minds too. Most like a result of expectation bias and not expecting to hear a differnce because they're biased against doing so?
I'm all for a logical debate, and of course as humans we make mistakes but, I've tested myself enough times to know it's not just "in my mind" and I'm not "fooling myself" Remember I began all this believing wires couldn't possibly sound different...
Thetubeguy1954
Hello fredex!
Forgive me if I come across as being confrontational. It's not my intention, at times I'm just very direct with my questions or my responses to other people's questions.
Can you please provide me with proof from a peer-reviewed & published article that verfies ONLY deviations of LCR is what responsible for the changes in behaviour of the system? Without such proof your statement is no more valid that many statements made by subjectivists.
Although I'm in complete agreement with you. As far as your statement that any 'sound' or 'effect' that results is a property of the system and not a property of the cable itself, so you can say that "cables do not have a sound" is concerened, provided it's also your contention that the word cable, in your statement above, can be substituted with amp, preamp, CDP, TT, speaker etc. and be equally valid, I can understand why you'd believe this to me be true. "If' I understand your POV correctly, then this seems like a more accurate statement to me; Any 'sound' or 'effect' that results is a property of the interaction of the individual audio components in the system and not a property of the individual audio components themselves, so you can say that "individual audio components" do not have a sound!
I agree that there are those ---{myself included}--- who believe that cables like all other individual audio components do have a sound, or produce a certain effect that can be heard. Because of this certain cables like Nordost's Odins, Stealth's Indra or MIT's Oracle have indeed acquired a reputation based on what they sound like. The fact that their extraordinary sound or effect doesn't always completely follow these different cables around in the different systems they're placed in is hardly surprising. Even the unique sound of cheap audio cables doesn't follow them in the exact same way in different systems they're placed in!
The problem lies in trying to discover whether a wire's sound is the result of the affects of RLC or whether it's defined by a more complex group of affects based on numerous events such as dielectric absorption, triboelectric sensitivity, mechanical isolation, shielding, magnetic & electric fields caused when a signal passes through a wire possibly interacting with the magnetic & electric fields of other closely placed wires, different wire metals used ---{copper, silver, silver-plated copper, gold, silver plated gold etc}--- different wire geometries used ---{litz, helix, ribbons (side-by-side -Magnan) or (top & bottom -Goertz) multiple strands side-by-side (think Nordost) usage of single solid core wire or multiple standed wires etc.}--- perhaps all of these things play their part in the sonic differences heard in different wires. To say there isn't at least anecdotal evidence to this effect, seems a deliberate divergence from the truth to me.
I cannot speak for others but I'm offended at how quickly people such as yourself will claim as if it's a proven scientific fact, that when some people ---{I believe it's another deliberate divergence from truth on your part to claim that everyone has different opinions on the sound of a particular cable}--- disagree on the sound of a cable, it's either in the their minds or we are back to LCR doing different things to different systems!
Please show me some proof via a peer-reviewed, published article that verifies when people disagree on the sound of a cable, it's only because of a or b below:
a) in the their minds
b) only LCR doing different things to different systems
When people make statements like this one you just made or this one Subjectivists claim they hear differences in wires in order to justify the expense of the wires they purchased I often wonder if perhaps Objectivists claim they don't hear differences in wires in order to justify the inexpense of the wires they purchased or perhaps not hearing a difference is in their minds too. Most like a result of expectation bias and not expecting to hear a differnce because they're biased against doing so?
I'm all for a logical debate, and of course as humans we make mistakes but, I've tested myself enough times to know it's not just "in my mind" and I'm not "fooling myself" Remember I began all this believing wires couldn't possibly sound different...
Thetubeguy1954
Hello SY
Sy did you have any questions for me after reading about the tests on wires? If you asked me any questions I missed them. Please re-ask them or provide me a link to where your questions are.
Thanks,
Thetubeguy1954
Sy did you have any questions for me after reading about the tests on wires? If you asked me any questions I missed them. Please re-ask them or provide me a link to where your questions are.
Thanks,
Thetubeguy1954
Re: Excuse Me?
Since my experience is that different lengths (within reason) of the same cable doesn't change the 'sound' of a cable, my believe is that there must be more influences than the LCR of a cable suggest. To me silver cables sound different from copper, using a shorter length of copper cable to ofset the resistance difference will not make it sound like silver.
thetubeguy1954 said:
Since my experience is that different lengths (within reason) of the same cable doesn't change the 'sound' of a cable, my believe is that there must be more influences than the LCR of a cable suggest. To me silver cables sound different from copper, using a shorter length of copper cable to ofset the resistance difference will not make it sound like silver.
Hi,
Sure enough that will play trick with the soundstage.
It'll often shift left or right depending on what cable has the lowest resistance. IOW one channel would be a bit louder than the other.
Now imagine we're having equal cables left and right as far as LCR parameters go but different dielctric materials or different metals or whatever.
Will you still have a correct soundstage?
No, you won't.
Why?
Cheers, 😉
tinitus said:
Sure enough that will play trick with the soundstage.
It'll often shift left or right depending on what cable has the lowest resistance. IOW one channel would be a bit louder than the other.
Now imagine we're having equal cables left and right as far as LCR parameters go but different dielctric materials or different metals or whatever.
Will you still have a correct soundstage?
No, you won't.
Why?
Cheers, 😉
janneman said:
My my, thx for that. If so, it should be possible to generate low distortion multi-tones and with the right bench software/hardware watch the result of bias changes, etc., live on freeware spectrum analyzers. New toys.
Re: Re: Excuse Me?
Hi,
Of course not.
Every metal, every dielectric has its own sonic fingerprint.
Basically every small detail matters even solder and resin left behind. In a word every single detail matters.
What matters most of all is your state of mind.
If your goal is to reproduce recorded music as close to live music a good start would be buy a piano and...... compare.
Cheers, 😉
Hi,
Andre Visser said:
Of course not.
Every metal, every dielectric has its own sonic fingerprint.
Basically every small detail matters even solder and resin left behind. In a word every single detail matters.
What matters most of all is your state of mind.
If your goal is to reproduce recorded music as close to live music a good start would be buy a piano and...... compare.
Cheers, 😉
janneman said:
Jan do you have a link to the spec? Now that I fixed my problems I would be glad to generate some 24/96k wavs that conform to it and someone could host them for free.
You appear to have gotten a shave?
This thread is tucked in the loudspeaker threads
I have not seen this before
So, we should be talking solely about speaker cables
Are we talking about the same thing at all
I have not seen this before
So, we should be talking solely about speaker cables
Are we talking about the same thing at all
Yes, several pages back. Basically, how scoring was done and how presentation order was selected.
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