I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jump to Latest
#3,841
bwaslo said:


Well, 'measure different' isn't a precise thing. As was alluded to earlier, in real measurements there will always be tolerances. With good test equipment, all cables (or amplifiers, speakers, etc) will always measure different from each other, there's no such thing as "exactly the same" when you're talking continuous values like dB, V, A, pF, nH or Ohms. Even if you measure the same cable twice, you'll get slightly different results because of noise in the measurement. In the real world, with real measurements (other than "counting" measurements) there is ALWAYS a difference. So some sort of tolerance would have to be assumed to be 'insignificant' to get anywhere. It might be a good idea to also listen-test two cables of the same type, but different lengths (maybe 2:1?) so there would be some confidence that a given amount of variations in capacitance, inductance, resistance is below the expected audibility. Then cables made to clone those parameters might be considered "close enough".
Click to expand...
Been an engineer a long time Bill, I understand that. What I was trying to do was assure there would be nothing gross that could easily identify one as being different, such as FR or too much capacitance causing the preceding stage to distort differently/more. Seems to me that any test needs a baseline and to be screened for obvious faults that will render it worthless.
 
#3,842
Brett,

No argument about what you say, sorry to come off like I was lecturing. I was responding in part to comments I've seen too often on a lot of discussions like this where someone mentions things measuring exactly the same and sounding different (usually to promote a message suggesting "the geek engineers don't know nuffin, my mystical ears are ineffable"). When as you know, really nothing ever measures quite the same if you measure enough things over enough frequencies with enough resolution, etc. I'd like to see a "pretest" where parameters are changed some amount (even if all at once, like same cable type of different length), verifying that those aren't heard differently by the people providing the ears for a test meant to show "new science" effects of speaker cables.

About the only test that will mean anything will be one where someone does verifiably demonstrate hearing a difference that can't be attributed to known, classical causes. Things could get pretty interesting if that ever happens. I've heard claims of that happening (TubeGuy and others) but not yet witnessed such nor seen a convincing description of a succesful test from known and reliable witnesses. Of course if no differences were shown to have been heard, then the tolerance issue doesn't matter -- at least for the one person and that one test, that is; that test won't conclude much though since it can only ever show that nothing was shown!
 
#3,843
SY said:


Could you please provide details, procedures, and controls for the DBT tests?
Click to expand...

Sure Sy, why not? I don't have the time today to go into any detail today as I'm having a couple of Central Florida Audio Society members over for a listening session to compare my completely treated Fostex FE206E vs partially treated Fostex FE206ESR vs untreated Lowther DX4 or DX3 drivers in my Madison/Sachiko cabinets.

I'm writing this breif reply because didn't want you to think I was ignoring your question. Most likely I post in detail on Sunday or Monday at the latest. I would like everyone to know I originally did wire testing because I didn't believes wires could or would possibly sound different or cause a system to sound different. Thus my expectations were biased towards not hearing any differences in these tests.

Thanks for your patience in waiting for a more complete reply. I promise there's more to come very soon...

Thetubeguy1954
 
#3,844
thetubeguy1954 said:


Sure Sy, why not?

Thetubeguy1954
Click to expand...

Don't mean to be a pest, honestly, but I would also like to see the controls that eliminated all response deviations to below .1dB. I think this is around the threshold that has been proven to be audible in tests where the protocol has been rigorous.

To elaborate a little, I'm talking about a cable version of the Carver challenge (more interesting IMO). Give me your favorite $$$ cables and I will go off with the Belden catalog and receate them with off the shelf DIY (or at least try). I think that's along bwaslo's line of thinking?
 
#3,845
I think that's along bwaslo's line of thinking?
Click to expand...

And mine. The listening tests generally fall short of control when the details are examined- most audiophiles have no idea of how tedious it is to set it up properly. Getting the lumped parameters equal is pretty simple, the question is always tolerances. If the amp is stable, the eq can be just as easily done at the input.

I'm a little surprised at the weird conditions (source and load unknown)- I'd think that if someone offers to duplicate the sound of any of the exotic cables with cheap wire and a couple of cheap parts, I'd be pretty intrigued. Doubly so with some well-recognized engineers like you and Bill saying the same thing.

tg1954- much appreciated!
 
#3,846
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An illusion that will not survive to a fair blind

bwaslo said:
....It might be a good idea to also listen-test two cables of the same type, but different lengths (maybe 2:1?) so there would be some confidence that a given amount of variations in capacitance, inductance, resistance is below the expected audibility. Then cables made to clone those parameters might be considered "close enough".
Click to expand...

Interesting now that you mention cable length and its effect on LCR measurements, thus affecting the system differently. This might disturb some sensitive viewers. 😀

I'm quite uncertain whether I will be able to tell the difference between a set of 1m or 2m of identical cables, to me different cables sound different and cable lenght has very little to do with it.
 
#3,849
scott wurcer said:
A little close to being quantifiable and measurable? :devilr:
Click to expand...

I did not find it necessary to measure, it was done for myself and the differences were very noticable. I've heard the same effect on more 'exotic' cable also, I'm using bi-wire cables that are exactly the same except for conductor dia (not even a large difference) and I'm very willing to do a blind test to tell which cable are used for LF and HF.
 
#3,852
I remember once I bought 3meter Audioquest Ruby, of the very first design
I mounted RCA at both ends, and thought I would just try and listen to it
So I connected the 3meter cable on one channel only, and it sounded just fantastic
Then I cut it in half to make a stereo set
And the magic was gone

I had no idea what had happened
Today I know :bawling:

First, speakers were Apogee diy clones
Second, preamp was a tube riia with single ecc81 as line amp

Do I need to say more :clown:
Had I only realised how easy I could adjust/"EQ" the sound
 
#3,854
The science indicating that people are imagining the difference that they claim to hear in cables is absolutely overwhelming. The best way to compare them is through an ABX comparitor. Before somebody says that the ABX will mask the difference, which I don't think it does at all, think of it this way: If there is any effect, it has the same effect on everything plugged in to it thus canceling out any "Color" that it might add. I belonged to a stereo constructors club who used this once. These were not your average people, who liked to tinker with building things. These were hard core audiophiles, of many backgrounds, and different age groups, just like us. The person who owned it would gladly loan it out, free of charge. Not one single time EVER did anybody bat over much over 50%. (random chance) in terms of guessing which cable was the cheap one, and which cable was the expensive one. (some used were thousands of dollars). I once invited a friend of mine, to one of the meets. Little did I know, he would go around trying to sell other people in the club his homemade, "transmission line" style cable. I didn't expect him to go Amway on me, and THAT was embarrassing. LOL They set him up with the box, and low and behold, he couldn't hear the difference between the cables he was trying to sell for a couple hundred dollars, and the $3.99 blister pack cables that came with somebody's $99 VCR.

Then the denial sets in, with a myriad of excuses: "Well I was under pressure" - "I wasn't at home and the gear was not familiar to me." - "I was having a bad hearing day" - "It was a noisy electrical grid day" LOL I LOVE that one. Every single excuse I've ever heard, they use. In this case, the person was loaned the ABX box, and after many repeated tries at home, he still could not hear the difference. There is TONS of psychology behind this stuff. When somebody lays out $1,000 for a pair of interconnects, they would feel very foolish, if they admitted to themselves that they can't hear any difference at all.

Whenever we buy anything new for our systems, or construct something new, what is the first thing that we do? We sit down, and listen our ***** off. We try to hear every nuance of whatever recording that we are playing. You might hear Dana Krall take in a bit of a breath, before she sings her next verse. Then we tell ourselves, !!! I never heard THAT so clearly before!!! OMG, these are GREAT!!! YE-HA!!!

Somebody already said, that the person who can't hear the diff, is using a $99 c.d. player. (I use a Phillips/Marantz CD-80 plugged in to a Threshold Dac-1E.)
 
#3,855
Hi Dave,selling cables does not necessarily make you able to hear any difference,in the same way that selling wines does not necessarily make you able to tell wine fifferences etc...What you say about those who for example buy $1000 cables is true only if they buy them without listening first.Don't forget though,that others,may borrow and try cables,and may,either like them or not and after they listen to them,judge and decide if they will buy.Not all potential buyers act as the one you describe.As for the ABX test,why have a box that might influence cable performance,or set-up to equate things,since you can have at least equal,IMO better performances without them?Also,the issue is to identify differences,not say which is the cheaper or the more expensive cable.I consider my interconnects for example that I decided to buy after listening,superior to others I had on loan when testing,that cost 2-3 times more.I personally find the insistence of using boxes in line with the signal,suspect,and perhaps the reason of a possible failure to detect differences.Of course this is just my opinion.
 
#3,856
I personally find the insistence of using boxes in line with the signal
Click to expand...

So you don't use preamps or any signal switching? No power amps? No crossovers or filters? And there's no switches or connectors in line with the signal during recording or mastering? Wow, that certainly limits your music and system choices.

Of course, if you believe that superposition is a bunch of hooey, the difference between 100 contacts and 101 is enough to ruin audibility, and all of the basic laws of physics must be rewritten because of some hifi guys playing with wires in uncontrolled tests, you're certainly welcome to that. Having some actual evidence of this remarkable claim would be helpful.

Please don't use the wine comparison. Blind testing is the norm in that world, and people who make and sell wine do that kind of thing all the time. If you want a sommelier certification, there's a long series of blind tests you need to pass. Somehow, despite the awful test pressures, artificial situations, not being at home, and god knows what else, hundreds of people have qualified for MS and MW certifications.
 
#3,857
Andre Visser said:
Never tried welding cable but experimented with different gauges of mains wiring, my experience was that larger cable diameters have a negative influence on HF.....
.....I believe there is an optimum diameter but that may vary a bit depending on material and topology.
Click to expand...

Hi Andre your experience has caused you to have a certain belief system but you may believe that this has no effect on what you are hearing. I'll admit that I have the same belief on the diameter of cables which I got from personal experience after reading about Jimmy Hughes (HiFi Answers...UK mag from 70's) and his 'thin is better and solid core is best' experiments. Of course if you go real small the sound is going to change so much that anyone would be able to pick it even in the most rigorous DBT. If you reduce the diameter (speaker cables) you will eventually notice a change in sound and it will be a freq response change. If the bass changes even slightly you may experience this as better or worse treble. If the treble changes you may hear this as better or worse bass.

Now even though the cables you use are not extreme enough to grossly affect the freq response, your belief system is still alive and well and it will influence the sound you hear. The only way to take your belief system out of the equation is through a blind test.

Killing the imagination however will not necessarily make you happier. I sometimes wish I was like I was back in the 70s, I had a lot of fun playing with cables, it was a magical world to be in.

Cheers.
 
#3,858
Panicos K said:
Hi Dave,selling cables does not necessarily make you able to hear any difference,in the same way that selling wines does not necessarily make you able to tell wine fifferences etc...What you say about those who for example buy $1000 cables is true only if they buy them without listening first.Don't forget though,that others,may borrow and try cables,and may,either like them or not and after they listen to them,judge and decide if they will buy.Not all potential buyers act as the one you describe.As for the ABX test,why have a box that might influence cable performance,or set-up to equate things,since you can have at least equal,IMO better performances without them?Also,the issue is to identify differences,not say which is the cheaper or the more expensive cable.I consider my interconnects for example that I decided to buy after listening,superior to others I had on loan when testing,that cost 2-3 times more.I personally find the insistence of using boxes in line with the signal,suspect,and perhaps the reason of a possible failure to detect differences.Of course this is just my opinion.
Click to expand...
I see what your saying. I want to have as few contacts in my system as possible also. The guy I mentioned was just one case also. I thought it was a funny example. For those who may not know what it is: The point of the ABX box is to get an instant comparison between the A. which is one cable or amp or something, and B which is the other one. Those two things you know about when you select them, and you can practice listening to them as much as you want, between tests. X is the box randomly selecting one or the other component, and from there you are to guess which one it is, as the box keeps track. The thing I hate about comparing any component, is the time delay of having to change wires, or amps or what have you. I would much rather have an instant comparison. FWIW, when I compare stuff, I do it with an auto repeat, of a 5-10 second passage. I try to focus on one thing, (maybe cymbals, because I used to play drums) and play that one passage, and then I'll try another.
 
#3,859
SY said:
Of course, if you believe that superposition is a bunch of hooey, the difference between 100 contacts and 101 is enough to ruin audibility ..
Click to expand...

Minor quibble, the days of 100 contacts are generally long past and good riddance. Thinking of the unexceptional production systems I last build at work, from the microphone one interconnect and maybe one or two switches before hitting the digital domain. It wouldn't surprise me if the bulk of contacts and interconnects are on the playback side with most modern recordings.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom