I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

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#3,741
terry j said:
I get that, not too sure of the whole truth of it. Similar question really to the one to Alex, if he managed to pass the test we intend to do, would you reject the result simply as it came form a test?
No?
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Terry, nobody can really question what was or wasn't audible in your test on that system. I've done my share of blind tests on cables to stand by what I've said, I also believed that cables can have little or no effect on SQ but there are some that are worthwhile if you are crazy enough.

terry j said:
But no doubt because it was a test, that would be sufficient to reject any failing of the test?? That was kinda the area I was going if indeed I misrepresented you.
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I didn't say 'tests' can't proof anything, my point is that it may cause somebody unfamiliar with the procedure to concentrate more on the TEST than on the music.


terry j said:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184
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Thanks, quite interesting, any info on his system perhaps. (Don't worry I will not criticise it. 😀 )

terry j said:
Sorry, you made mention that as the people who take these tests (and fail) are not trained, it was one of the many reasons why tests were flawed off the top of your head IIRC), NOT me.
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By 'trained' listeners I mean people used to listen critically to a good system, obviously using a good recording (I believe unamplified acoustic instruments), have experience with the sound of live unamplified acoustic instruments and having experience in blind testing. Not like in some cases, randomly selecting a few students and do a 'test'.

terry j said:
This will no doubt come across as an arrogant statement, but I actually DO consider my system to be a state of the art system. Completely acknowledging any bias I may have as the owner, builder etc etc, but truthfully, I would put my system up against ANY other in the country....
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Good, my point is that some cable do have less negative influence on the signal or system for that matter, so IF you are searching for more, at least borrow some cable somewhere and try for yourself.

terry j said:
IF you have your speakers fully sorted, IF you have the speaker/speaker room interface properly sorted, then yeah fine! go for the ever decreasing returns found in cables, and do it with my complete support.
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I agree.
 
#3,742
AndrewT said:
read post 3568 and 3672 and go back to that link to post6.
Note, I said hypothesis.

I'll say again.
It's not the cables that sound different.
It is the source and/or the receiver that changes in response to the new (reactive) loading that the cable has imposed.
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Thanks! and I agree with your last point although the biggest question for me is the audibility.

and to clarify, the measurements I keep talking about are audibility measurements. I was not accurately posting what I was talking about. I already know cables have different inductance,resistance,capacitance...several online sources have done the tests and posted the results.

I do have question about the recent link with the Cerwin guy....are they using Coax for speaker wire??
 
#3,743
doug20 said:
........... the biggest question for me is the audibility.

and to clarify, the measurements I keep talking about are audibility measurements...............
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an example of audibility (audible distortion) is sibilance.
Does that audible effect show up in measured results?
What type of tests would show whether a circuit creates or worsens sibilance?

I know I can hear it, I don't know what it is that I am hearing nor how to measure the difference nor to give you a physical explanation of why we hear it.

I am sure you can think of other descriptors that indicate we hear things that are different from real life sounds. Again, how do we measure circuitry to reveal why we hear these distortions?

I'll go out on a limb here.
I will guarantee that when someone posts a link to WHY we hear sibilance and WHY the circuit enhances it, we will find that the cable does NOT create the sibilance. The active circuit creates the audible distortion.
 
#3,744
Andre Visser said:
Thanks, quite interesting, any info on his system perhaps. (Don't worry I will not criticise it. 😀 )
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http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm

Sorry, my mistake. I just assumed most would know of it, it's 'pretty famous'..or so I thought.

By 'trained' listeners I mean people used to listen critically to a good system, obviously using a good recording (I believe unamplified acoustic instruments), have experience with the sound of live unamplified acoustic instruments and having experience in blind testing. Not like in some cases, randomly selecting a few students and do a 'test'.
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Got it. Like those here that have a good system and claim that there is no point of good cables on a cheap system, nor bad cables on an expensive one. Got it.

Unlike Mike Lavigne one would presume. The sole reason he could not hear the difference between $30 000 speaker cables and a hundred dollar or so monster cables is because he was not trained. A randomly selected student if you will. Or he has a bad system. Or a bad room. Or something...anything...other than the very slight possibility that the emperor is naked.

Got it.

But also take your point on experience with testing. Only trouble is (apart from alex) there always seems to be that first little problem, finding those willing to take part in the first, then second and so on to become trained in the art of doing blind tests.

I also learned that until you roll your sleeves up and organise and do a dbt as best you can, you simply cannot predict beforehand all the little 'faults or 'if I could I'd do that bit differently'.

But hey, at least some of us try.

Others take the easy road and just sit behind their keyboards and criticise.

I had to laugh at myself when I saw my long post (just felt like chatting) against the brevity of others. So for now, no more gasbagging.

Feels rather cold tho, but so be it.
 
#3,745
terry j said:




Unlike Mike Lavigne one would presume. The sole reason he could not hear the difference between $30 000 speaker cables and a hundred dollar or so monster cables is because he was not trained. A randomly selected student if you will. Or he has a bad system. Or a bad room. Or something...anything...other than the very slight possibility that the emperor is naked.


Terry,this is the exaggeration I was talking about before.Why testing a $30000 cable to a $100 one unless of course someone is thinking of buying such a cable....... A $30000 gives anyone the right,and no one will dissagree,to call the manufacturer anyway he likes🙂 Why not testing for example a $30 which many here will insist it is even too much,with a $300 one?There the possibilities to hear the difference are much more,provided that we choose a cable from a true manufacturer and not one who rebrands imported cables and creates myths that even true audiophiles laugh when hearing them.As for true/genuine manufacturers,we all know some,or more than some🙂
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#3,748
AndrewT said:
an example of audibility (audible distortion) is sibilance.
Does that audible effect show up in measured results?
What type of tests would show whether a circuit creates or worsens sibilance?

I know I can hear it, I don't know what it is that I am hearing nor how to measure the difference nor to give you a physical explanation of why we hear it.

I am sure you can think of other descriptors that indicate we hear things that are different from real life sounds. Again, how do we measure circuitry to reveal why we hear these distortions?

I'll go out on a limb here.
I will guarantee that when someone posts a link to WHY we hear sibilance and WHY the circuit enhances it, we will find that the cable does NOT create the sibilance. The active circuit creates the audible distortion.
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So you can hear the different 'hiss' levels of cables? During normal playback?


Also, did you ever post that you have done controlled tests? Ie...removing all bias and just have sound, no images of cables, brands, price, etc?
 
#3,749
terry j said:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm

Sorry, my mistake. I just assumed most would know of it, it's 'pretty famous'..or so I thought.
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Very nice, I guess there are no difference between cables then. 😀

terry j said:
Got it. Like those here that have a good system and claim that there is no point of good cables on a cheap system, nor bad cables on an expensive one. Got it.
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Changed from what I've said but close enough perhaps.

terry j said:
[Unlike Mike Lavigne one would presume. The sole reason he could not hear the difference between $30 000 speaker cables and a hundred dollar or so monster cables......
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Are we discussing cable differences or cable prices? If prices we are in the wrong thread. 😉

Who are going to tell Mike Lavigne to sell his cables and cable lifters and use cheap Monster cable. 😀
 
#3,751
Andre Visser said:


Are we discussing cable differences or cable prices? If prices we are in the wrong thread. 😉
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Right
I have no idea why its always insinuated that we who claim difference between cables, are all about classy look and high prices
Its not so at all, and I dont like it either
Often arguments are followed by a personal negative "attacks"
The "believers" in cables never seem to get that personal, and good for that

Good cables are made by DIY, so not many of those arguments holds one bit
I find its a complete waste of time to debate what rich people do with their money
Thats not DIY
I have no interest in anything outside the DIY
 
#3,752
Panicos K said:
Terry,this is the exaggeration I was talking about before.Why testing a $30000 cable to a $100 one unless of course someone is thinking of buying such a cable....... A $30000 gives anyone the right,and no one will dissagree,to call the manufacturer anyway he likes🙂 Why not testing for example a $30 which many here will insist it is even too much,with a $300 one?
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You really are grasping at straws.

Did you see his system and custom built room? I'd say he can afford the 30k cables if he chose. The point was that often it is purportrd that more expensive gear is better than less expensive. Here you have that at a fair extreme. It is a valid test.
 
#3,753
I have heard very expencive setup with active ATC signature speaker
All electronics were the best NAIM, 3box preamp, and 2box CD
All expencive cables
Very trimmed and sounding very nice
Sound was quite similar to my own DIY setup
I could easily find some areas where my own sounded better

Fun part is that expencive cabling was important for this expencive setup to sound this good
My humble DIY hifi doesnt need any special cables at all, and still sound just as good
 
#3,755
Brett said:
You really are grasping at straws.

Did you see his system and custom built room? I'd say he can afford the 30k cables if he chose. The point was that often it is purportrd that more expensive gear is better than less expensive. Here you have that at a fair extreme. It is a valid test.
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I could blame my bad English agin,but this was not my point.My point is that a $30000 cable is well out of any logical limits,even "audiophool"ones.Did I say he cannot afford it?Also,because he didn't hear any difference between $30 and $30000 cables,it doesn't mean he or any other will not hear a difference between a $300 and a $30000,or a $30 and a $300.And I say difference not improvement.Speaking of myself,I could choose easily a $300 cable to kick the socks off many 5-digit dollar cables,and any $30 cable too.
 
#3,760
Panicos K said:


You might know something more though.
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I have no idea about that
But I know how I would do it

I have cables by the late mr Duelund
Didnt cost much
He was happy to be payed by the cost of materieals, or close
Commercially they would cost a fortune
I like them
But I know others who dont
So its hard to say what is best or better
 
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