tinitus said:
Thats reasonable but we are not talking about processing the information we are just talking about gather all information.
the problem with everyone that hears a difference is that none of them can hear a difference when the bias is removed. That so far proves to me that there is a big flaw when the information (sound) is processed by the brain which has all these extra variables that mess with the results.
Telstar said:
What can you hear that can not be measured? What is measured that you can not hear?
I know you can not hear a thin, deep null @ 40Hz in a room during normal playback, I know you can not hear 3rd order distortion if its below so many dBs, you can also not tell me the value of decay of a 400Hz chirp in any signal room. You can not tell me what frequency is down -10dB on a 60 degree axis.
Just these simple measurements that help
IF thats laughable, then no problem. Maybe you can post something useful instead of insults so that I can learn something, food for thought.....explain what can not be measured?
I have yet to read about anyone winning money with their golden ears so I will stick to what science has been telling me for over 20 years since me and some extremely intelligent Engineering roommates (ones who hold PhDs in AstroPhysics, etc these days) stole our friends uber expensive cables and replaced them with Radio shack crap.....he never noticed the difference for the week until he SAW the cables.
Panicos K said:
That is a different topic....we are talking about cables and how they might alter sound.
you do not need to argue that the ear is an incredible device. Its already know. Its also a flawed device for almost everyone, meaning in general people do not have perfect hearing. We do not have a calibration file in our brains for that defect.
The problem with all this debate is that some people do not understand or just disagree with the fact that the brain has complete control over what you think you hear. The more variables involved with the listening experience the more the results will be tainted.
Control the listening experience is the only way to really know what you heard is true.
Panicos K said:
Again, I think that is a different topic. You are talking about taking all the data from the measurements doing some massive processing to come to some sort of real world conclusion...."That was a violin", maybe even more detailed then that.
testing if a cable sounds different has little to do with Knowing it was a violin and more to do with Knowing the violin played through the speakers had more distortion (measured) with different cables or that the Violin sounded (Measured) different with each cable.
It is the same topic as was your comment.
As for your friend who hasn't realized the switch,I have done something similar to a friend of mine,amplifier designer and a sceptic.I asked for his opinion about two cartridges,while in reality I have changed tonearm cables.He liked one cartridge over the other🙂 When I told him what I did,he just refused to accept it.Mind you that no one of the two cables had characteristics that could be considered as far away for the purpose.After two weeks he has bought one of the two cables for his SME V/Benz Ruby 3.I am not saying this to prove anything,but to show that "mistakes" can be made by both sides.Neither your story or mine proves anything.
As for your friend who hasn't realized the switch,I have done something similar to a friend of mine,amplifier designer and a sceptic.I asked for his opinion about two cartridges,while in reality I have changed tonearm cables.He liked one cartridge over the other🙂 When I told him what I did,he just refused to accept it.Mind you that no one of the two cables had characteristics that could be considered as far away for the purpose.After two weeks he has bought one of the two cables for his SME V/Benz Ruby 3.I am not saying this to prove anything,but to show that "mistakes" can be made by both sides.Neither your story or mine proves anything.
Panicos K said:
Panicos K said:
You still don't understand the difference between ears and brains. An intelligent fellow like you needs to get busy learning the basics of perception.
Mikes "hear" far better than even the best human ears. So do dogs's ears, but that doesn't give them the ability to distinguish Beethoven from Bach.
Panicos K said:
It was not my intent though, Im strictly wanting to talk about measurements and how they are more accurate in spotting scientific difference in any electrical component in they audio chain. Our ears are not as accurate in that aspect.
Actually I believe our ears are just complex but dumb tools and the brain does all the processing anyways. Im a firm believer in only believing 1/4 of what you hear since our brains have lots of data outside of what the ears send them to process....summary BIAS is a b*tch. If I can control the environment then I will trust my hearing more but that is extremely hard to do.
johnnyx said:
Hello Johnnyx!
Yes I've read where symmetry is important myself. The article I read stated that a "beautiful" person will look virtually the same ---{due to symmetry}--- on the both right & left sides, when you take a mirror and place it 1/2 between their eyes vertically and have them look straight into a mirror in front of them.
Whereas the more the right & left side look different when the person places the mirror vertically 1/2 way between their eyes and looks into a mirror in front of them, the less attractive these people are viewed by others!
Thetubeguy1954
SY, you know I know what you mean,and I know you know what I mean.I believe that somewhere there must be some books that say brain/senses relationship varies between different people.Personally I have rejected 99% of the items I was thinking of buying after listening ,and the 1% that I bought was not the most expensive one(ok,except perhaps my cartridge).I feel,believe if you like that my brain and I are good friends,both working for the family's pocket 🙂
Also,in the primitive test my friends and I had a few months ago,the prefered cable was the cheaper one......and I'm very glad it was.🙄
Also,in the primitive test my friends and I had a few months ago,the prefered cable was the cheaper one......and I'm very glad it was.🙄
SY,I have already started reading the basics of perception.If you ever receive a parcel from here,open it and don't be afraid,it won't be a bomb,it might be my cables.......🙂
{Quoted edited by TG1954}terry j said:
Hello Again Terryj!
Yes I've offered to prove I can hear differences to anyone who wishes to test that ability. I'll even submit to a DBT provided:
1) The changes in wires are made manuelly and not via an ABX box. (Of course we'd use whatever means are required to prevent my seeing both:
a) any possible changes made or not made in the wires.
b) the person who may or may not have changed the wires. The second being done to prevent a Clever Hans incident from accidentially occuring)
2) We use a system I'm intimately familair with (that means components and room) or I'm allowed to become intimately familair with the components in the room I'm required to take the DBT in.
If those two stipulations are met I'm sure I can detect differences (when they're present) in some wires and audio components.
Terry I also thought we had been starting to communicate with each other with a level of respect that could lead to progress. I apologize for whatever I accidentially did that made you believe we weren't, "if" I'm who you were speaking of in this regard.
Thetubeguy1954
doug20 said:
I don't think anybody claim that our ears / brain are very accurate measuring tools when compared to instruments, there are however instances that our ears / brain can detect differences in music reproduction that may be hard to measure.
Measurements are very important to make sure everything operate correctly but ultimately what matter in hi-fi is the way we perceive the reproduction, whether it sound believable or not. Most of the differences between cables are in soundstage focus and low level detail, not that easy to recreate accurately and surely not easy to measure also.
doug20 said:
Yes you are right and it is good to know our shortcomings but it is possible, with training, to minimize external influences on the way we hear.
SY said:
Sure but it's the processor that is hard to copy. 😉 😀
SY, just for interest sake, how do the dynamic range compare between a good mic and our ears/brain?
Not copied but maybe vastly improved upon?
I like you to "hear" that:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090630132013.htm
Please nobody gives me that crap that anything in your body that is biological, including the processor, is inherently superior to technology or will never be replicated and bettered.
I am 60 years old, have arthritis in my knees, my hearing is going down and I wear glasse since I was 14.
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