dukeoyork,
What you actually did was the closest thing you could do,to what you usually did with acute hearing.That also shows your experience gained over the years,but also that this experience was hugely aided by your trust to your own hearing.Burying or over-pronouncing certain things during mixing,is a matter of taste sometimes,and that is natural.You only have to think of it when as you say a dozen of people tell you what they think about your decision🙂 But in the end it is you who will decide right?As for moving our heads an inch or two,no comments.Many times I walk in the room,doing things,and still enjoy the music,and never loose anything to the extent that a microphone whould.I can't hear what a microphone can measure,and I'm equally sure that a microphone cannot measure what I can hear.It can however,measure what it can hear🙂
What you actually did was the closest thing you could do,to what you usually did with acute hearing.That also shows your experience gained over the years,but also that this experience was hugely aided by your trust to your own hearing.Burying or over-pronouncing certain things during mixing,is a matter of taste sometimes,and that is natural.You only have to think of it when as you say a dozen of people tell you what they think about your decision🙂 But in the end it is you who will decide right?As for moving our heads an inch or two,no comments.Many times I walk in the room,doing things,and still enjoy the music,and never loose anything to the extent that a microphone whould.I can't hear what a microphone can measure,and I'm equally sure that a microphone cannot measure what I can hear.It can however,measure what it can hear🙂
Again, not at all. There is no mirror equivalence. The ear/brain system processes environmental modifications to an external (to self) acoustic source differently than it does the effects on listener position. This is ground zero psychoacoustics. A simple experiments to perform at home: do you hear the effect of walking past a table radio as massive frequency response variations or as positional changes in your auditory field? How do you think the ear/brain synthesizes the latter?
yeah, panikos. in the kitchen i have one boston acoustics speaker with white glue and foam surround, lol, that i found in the garbage. it's on the floor, under the table, and an orphaned infinity il10 is on a shelf at 90degrees to the under the table one. i still enjoy the music, and it sounds half decent and musical, even though just about EVERYTHING is 'wrong' with the set-up, haha. i wouldn't want to judge what is 'wrong' with a recording based on it, though.
maybe if i moved my head a half an inch to the side, i could tell what's what.
maybe if i moved my head a half an inch to the side, i could tell what's what.
rdf said:
Well, it can depend upon what I'm listening for, or even whether I'm listening for it, but sweet spots with many speaker & room setups cannot be denied, either for the speaker position or that of the listener.
I'd suppose, though, that even if people were making cable assessments, and, inadvertantly, changing their listening position between cable swaps, they'd do this more than once, thus leaving room for listening variance on the control and test subject. Moreover the tester is possibly (likely even) to be seeking that "sweet spot" anyway, in order to listen to the effect of the system changes.
I will admit here and now, that I cannot summon up the enthusiasm to experiment with cables, so cannot confirm or discredit the idea that "cables make a difference". I've spent many build and repair hours on other parts of my systems to good effect.
Ed
OK, just the basics!
I HAVE REAL QUESTIONS THAT NEED ANSWERED PLEASE:
1. 16AWG minimum, I am building line array, so 12AWG more robust?
2. Multi, twisted pair. I have a lot of 16AWG? No BiWiring, 3 CONDUCTORS PER POLAIRITY OK, three pair 16AWG???
3. High stranded?
4. Locking banana both ends?
Note on measurements:
A Time Domain Reflectometor (SP),on Radio Shack (at least 16AWG) verses $5000.00 PurplePeopleEater stuff may show a diffrence, but far from audible one. It is an audio thing, but if you have the money, I CAN MAKE YOU SOME GOOD S--T. As soon as the above questions get answered.
But crap is crap.
I HAVE REAL QUESTIONS THAT NEED ANSWERED PLEASE:
1. 16AWG minimum, I am building line array, so 12AWG more robust?
2. Multi, twisted pair. I have a lot of 16AWG? No BiWiring, 3 CONDUCTORS PER POLAIRITY OK, three pair 16AWG???
3. High stranded?
4. Locking banana both ends?
Note on measurements:
A Time Domain Reflectometor (SP),on Radio Shack (at least 16AWG) verses $5000.00 PurplePeopleEater stuff may show a diffrence, but far from audible one. It is an audio thing, but if you have the money, I CAN MAKE YOU SOME GOOD S--T. As soon as the above questions get answered.
But crap is crap.
Re: OK, just the basics!
Sorry Paul, but these are probably - for now - unanswerable questions. You will get opinions, not answers, because differences (if they exist) are disputed and lie close to the threshold of hearing, and beyond any agreed measurement technology.
For me, solid silver sounded consistently "different" to stranded copper. There will be no relevant measurable LRC difference between the 2 wires, and psychological factors undoubtably have a role (some would say the entire explanation).
You might want to browse the Cable Asylum (for one point of view), read up on DBTs and those who have applied them, the concept of System Synergy. Cable cookers. Lots of work sorting out possibly non-existent nuances!
My only suggestion is that you avoid shelling out loadsa cash on exotic materials, otherwise join the fray!
paul stewart said:
Sorry Paul, but these are probably - for now - unanswerable questions. You will get opinions, not answers, because differences (if they exist) are disputed and lie close to the threshold of hearing, and beyond any agreed measurement technology.
For me, solid silver sounded consistently "different" to stranded copper. There will be no relevant measurable LRC difference between the 2 wires, and psychological factors undoubtably have a role (some would say the entire explanation).
You might want to browse the Cable Asylum (for one point of view), read up on DBTs and those who have applied them, the concept of System Synergy. Cable cookers. Lots of work sorting out possibly non-existent nuances!
My only suggestion is that you avoid shelling out loadsa cash on exotic materials, otherwise join the fray!
Re: OK, just the basics!
Sorry' I don't understand some of your questions.
Your 3 pair 16AWG cable should be fine, make sure you connect one wire of each pair to positive and the other wire of each pair to negative.
paul stewart said:
Sorry' I don't understand some of your questions.
Your 3 pair 16AWG cable should be fine, make sure you connect one wire of each pair to positive and the other wire of each pair to negative.
Interesting post, just thought I'd share some notes. For my main speakers, I just use heavy gauge OFC cable and it sounds fine. To me, it is important to have as little impedance from the driver back as possible to the amplifier, in order to improve on the damping factor to the system.
I find that so long as the cable isn't overly thin and is made from good quality copper then it doesn't impact the sound overly much, provided that whatever the gauge of cable it is it can handle the power you are putting through it.
Also, I make sure that the conductor is bright and shiny and clean, for a good connection and often use gold screw on connectors.
I think that making sure that all connections are clean, free of grease and other contaminants that could cause corrosion, and secure with good electrical connection makes more importance than the cable itself, and that goes for speaker and interconnects. I'm not saying if you get some $0.50/m audio cable and a pair of the best rca plugs then it will sound great, but provided the cable is of decent quality and not blatant crap then good connections should be of prime importance.
I find that so long as the cable isn't overly thin and is made from good quality copper then it doesn't impact the sound overly much, provided that whatever the gauge of cable it is it can handle the power you are putting through it.
Also, I make sure that the conductor is bright and shiny and clean, for a good connection and often use gold screw on connectors.
I think that making sure that all connections are clean, free of grease and other contaminants that could cause corrosion, and secure with good electrical connection makes more importance than the cable itself, and that goes for speaker and interconnects. I'm not saying if you get some $0.50/m audio cable and a pair of the best rca plugs then it will sound great, but provided the cable is of decent quality and not blatant crap then good connections should be of prime importance.
flyingtele said:
Cheers, my own experience is completely different, and changing to fine guage silver (6 separately insulated strands per speaker) has a noticeably more extended bass, with less upper bass lift, and most importantly significantly increased detail and resolution across the entire freq spectrum. I could not now go back to large guage OFC. btw I have tube gear and full-range horns which may well be more revealing of these differences.
Milages vary as usual (and synergy and all that) - but it does not sound like you have actually tried woven silver cables. You might be surprised. (And yes I've done that double-blind thing.)
Hifi - you're always curious aren't you? I'm having a DAC crisis at the moment (the cables - all silver - stay).
Good listening!
" .... has a noticeably more extended bass, with less upper bass lift, and most importantly significantly increased detail and resolution across the entire freq spectrum. ..."
The problem is that is a completely meaningless statement (except to you!) and is unverifiable.
Such a noticeable (to you!) alteration in frequency response must be easily measurable. But it invariably does not prove to be.
So we go round and round!
The problem is that is a completely meaningless statement (except to you!) and is unverifiable.
Such a noticeable (to you!) alteration in frequency response must be easily measurable. But it invariably does not prove to be.
So we go round and round!
ugh... more subjective detritus
maybe you're having a "tube amp crisis" as well... and just don't know it... if cabling is making that kind of difference, your dacs are the least of your worries...😀 😀
maybe you're having a "tube amp crisis" as well... and just don't know it... if cabling is making that kind of difference, your dacs are the least of your worries...😀 😀
I feel a bit sorry for you guys, not hearing all the fun stuff would deprive me of 90% of this hobby. But i am also very curious: is it physiological or just a mental block preventing you from hearing?
Analog_sa, I believe it must be difficult to perceive cable differences on an oscilloscope, but then again, listening is only intended for those without proper test equipment. 🙄 😀
Ignoring your arrogant condescension ...
I listen to music not my "system", mostly chamber, orchestral and opera. I also like 40/50's jazz.
At 64 years my ears are still pretty good, balanced to about 2dB mid band and down at about 10KHz. I have played piano all my life and have a son who is a professional cellist. Our house is full of music.
I have some pretty good hardware including excellent vinyl and home built amplifiers. My room setup has been tweaked over many years (speaker placement, isolation and accoustic resonance etc)
I have never heard any difference to anything by swapping cables except when there were obvious bad connections prior.
I do not listen for "air" around the instruments and all that
nonsense. Exagerated stereo imaging is almost always created by pan-potting on a mixing desk which ruins the phasing. A thrill for a few minutes then boring and gets in the way.
I have a lot of good recordings in churches (Revox 15"/sec) with cross paired mics. Beautiful ambience and accoustics!
So I don't appreciate your arrogance and BTW, I think Dian Krall is a crap singer, often flat. So there! 😀
Now Callas, even in mono - there's something!
Edited for bad spelling.
I listen to music not my "system", mostly chamber, orchestral and opera. I also like 40/50's jazz.
At 64 years my ears are still pretty good, balanced to about 2dB mid band and down at about 10KHz. I have played piano all my life and have a son who is a professional cellist. Our house is full of music.
I have some pretty good hardware including excellent vinyl and home built amplifiers. My room setup has been tweaked over many years (speaker placement, isolation and accoustic resonance etc)
I have never heard any difference to anything by swapping cables except when there were obvious bad connections prior.
I do not listen for "air" around the instruments and all that
nonsense. Exagerated stereo imaging is almost always created by pan-potting on a mixing desk which ruins the phasing. A thrill for a few minutes then boring and gets in the way.
I have a lot of good recordings in churches (Revox 15"/sec) with cross paired mics. Beautiful ambience and accoustics!
So I don't appreciate your arrogance and BTW, I think Dian Krall is a crap singer, often flat. So there! 😀
Now Callas, even in mono - there's something!
Edited for bad spelling.
Not a fan of Krall, myself. How can I respect anyone who sleeps with Elvis Costello?
Ooooh, the Superior Dance! Cool!
Still waiting for you or anyone else to hear those miraculous differences without peeking. All I can hear is the sound of crickets chirping...
Ooooh, the Superior Dance! Cool!
Still waiting for you or anyone else to hear those miraculous differences without peeking. All I can hear is the sound of crickets chirping...
cliffforrest said:
It's about the only part of your post i understand and agree with. Maybe we should start a new thread dedicated to audiophile goddesses bashing - i have plenty to contribute there. This thread, however is about cables and if you choose to " not listen for "air" around the instruments and all that nonsense" then dedicated audio cables are probably not for you anyway. Btw, you didn't mention what specific cables you swapped and heard no difference.
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