Panicos K said:....By "signature"I do not mean "coloration" or something bad.Solid core cables have their signature as do multistrand cables.And yes,even in a blind test between solid core/stranded I can't miss it in my system.I too use dolid core in some cases.I reply to you as it was I who said about signature of solid core cables.
Cable differences will be audible if they change the frequency response of the system in an audible way.
This will happen if RLC change from cable to cable, such that FR interaction with the particular amp and speakers under audition, is sufficient.
It is no secret or revelation that cables with inadequate RLC for the application, will sound different.
That is not 'cable sound' or 'cable signature'; that is cable misuse.
The reality is that no-one has ever proved that interconnects are microphonic to any extent that it affects the sound quality they hear.
I dunno, that looks like an unequivocal statement to me, not a question. And it's incorrect; I still have one of those cables- would 'scope traces satisfy your criterion for proof?
Now where we might agree is that it's a trivial problem to solve and is generally not a factor for cheap, ordinary interconnects. And that when cable or interconnect differences have actually been shown to be audible (as opposed to 'asserted without evidence"), it's because of normal, non-exotic, and generally trivial engineering reasons.
tnargs said:
Cable differences will be audible if they change the frequency response of the system in an audible way.
This will happen if RLC change from cable to cable, such that FR interaction with the particular amp and speakers under audition, is sufficient.
It is no secret or revelation that cables with inadequate RLC for the application, will sound different.
That is not 'cable sound' or 'cable signature'; that is cable misuse.
Cable misuse?Maybe you are right.Sorry,I am new to audio, and even newer to music.
It's only misuse if it's either unintentional, or incorrectly applied. Who said the FR of the system is what was required of it to start off with? Sometimes it isn't, for a variety of reasons (not all of which are purely individual preference -you may have a mismatch between available components & not be in a position to make major alterations) and in certain cases you can use the RLC properties of wire to tailor it to, or closer to, what is needed. If that's misuse, I'd love to know what common sense is.
I thought things sounded odd, then when I brushed the interconnects while checking connections, I could clearly hear it on my speakers. Tried it again. Yup, the interconnects were superb vibration transducers.
Using unbalanced cables can cause external noise to introduce into the system, and if there is a grounding issue, then yes, just touching the cable means you could be the cicruit ground, that is not due to the microphonic nature of the cable, that is due to the design of the circuit.
The inductors in your crossover circuit can behave like a tuned circuit if you don't design it correctly.
You could create a static charge between the cable sheath and ground to induce a voltage at the signal output, but that is nothing to do with microphonics, that is do with electrical noise characteristics of the cable, and could be due to poor shielding. Cables can act as ariels, but this is not due to the cable acting as a "superb vibration transducer" as you put it.
This is complete nonsense.
If what you are saying is true, then I only have to try and brush my interconnects to hear this effect ?
My cables are well shielded and there is no earth loops or earthing problems in my system. Brushing the cables has zero effect at the loudspeaker. Maybe I'm using the wrong type brush ? ;-)
I have no idea of what your interconnects do or don't do. Mine were efficient vibration transducers, just as happy reproducing the brushing noise as they moved against my benchtop. Nothing to do with electrical noise pickup. Single ended versus balanced is a red herring- substituting cheap Radio Shack cables cured the problem.
You might want to research Teflon and triboelectricity- this is a well-known phenomenon (it's how the tribochargers work in powder spray guns) and a reason that I won't use Teflon in my interconnects any more. Not all Teflon-insulated interconnects will suffer from this problem, but some do, and it's incorrect to assert the contrary.
Since there were no inductors in my crossover circuit, I am unsure of what you're trying to say in that regard.
You might want to research Teflon and triboelectricity- this is a well-known phenomenon (it's how the tribochargers work in powder spray guns) and a reason that I won't use Teflon in my interconnects any more. Not all Teflon-insulated interconnects will suffer from this problem, but some do, and it's incorrect to assert the contrary.
Since there were no inductors in my crossover circuit, I am unsure of what you're trying to say in that regard.
Yes cables are microphonic but the only situation I can imagine it having any audible effects is with passive instrument cables. The impedance of a humbucker for example is about 6-9kohm. Step on that guitar cable or rattle it with your hand and you will hear it in the speaker.
A cable terminated with a modern condenser microphone or a modern line level output stage will have aprox. 20-100ohm impedance and I would be surprised if anyone would have problems from that.
I've done the test and heard nothing. Stepped on the cable and rattled it real good with my hand and heard nothing.
The only thing we have any reason to believe will have an audible effect in cables is R-C-L and the screen and I don't see a problem designing gear and interfaces that makes it a non issue.
/Peter
A cable terminated with a modern condenser microphone or a modern line level output stage will have aprox. 20-100ohm impedance and I would be surprised if anyone would have problems from that.
I've done the test and heard nothing. Stepped on the cable and rattled it real good with my hand and heard nothing.
The only thing we have any reason to believe will have an audible effect in cables is R-C-L and the screen and I don't see a problem designing gear and interfaces that makes it a non issue.
/Peter
mark03121,
You could not have paid more than $20 for your home made cables. You are missing the most important ingredient for quality audio equipment, purchase price.
If you want to totally remove all the coloration and signature (?) from your cables, sell them for $1000.
Al
You could not have paid more than $20 for your home made cables. You are missing the most important ingredient for quality audio equipment, purchase price.
If you want to totally remove all the coloration and signature (?) from your cables, sell them for $1000.
Al
Re: people here cables
Is enemys the plural of enema? Ignorance can indeed do that.
alan monro said:as due to ignorance the present discussion can make bad enemys as i have seen countless times . Alan
Is enemys the plural of enema? Ignorance can indeed do that.
All hifis sound exactly the same - and now it's been proven:
Proof here (Click on blind tests and then the link)
Except it hasn't of course.
After my own blind testing, I lost the desire for any cable upgrades. The test was borderline statistically positive (silver versus copper). My psyche took a pounding.
I have reasonable, well made cables, with good quality connectors. The VdH has a certain amount of voodoo designed in which as far as I see doesn't do any harm.
Stranded v solid? I now suspect I couldn't tell. Vibration may cause touching strands to make/break whether that would affect the sound.
Proof here (Click on blind tests and then the link)
Except it hasn't of course.
After my own blind testing, I lost the desire for any cable upgrades. The test was borderline statistically positive (silver versus copper). My psyche took a pounding.
I have reasonable, well made cables, with good quality connectors. The VdH has a certain amount of voodoo designed in which as far as I see doesn't do any harm.
Stranded v solid? I now suspect I couldn't tell. Vibration may cause touching strands to make/break whether that would affect the sound.
BigGayAl said:mark03121,
You could not have paid more than $20 for your home made cables. You are missing the most important ingredient for quality audio equipment, purchase price.
If you want to totally remove all the coloration and signature (?) from your cables, sell them for $1000.
Al
It seems that you have liked the term "signature" for the sound very much,or this is the first time you hear it perhaps?Well,it is true that for those to whom all does not sound the same,audio components have character or signature since you like the word🙂 As for irony you get top marks.Bravo
Pan said:A cable terminated with a modern condenser microphone or a modern line level output stage will have aprox. 20-100ohm impedance and I would be surprised if anyone would have problems from that.
Almost certainly due to modern cable designs already factoring microphonics and employing the standard tight twist and fibre fill used to ameliorate it. No doubt audio-kraut's phono cable is an example. Mic cables, being typically much longer, are more prone to the effect.
Some here seem to be confusing the existence of the effect with its severity.
tnargs said:Cable differences will be audible if they change the frequency response of the system in an audible way.
There are much more to music reproduction than frequency response measurements.
Andre Visser said:
There are much more to music reproduction than frequency response measurements.
Like for example so many recordings done before many of us here were born,with a very narrow frequency response but simply sound like music🙂
Andre Visser said:
There are much more to music reproduction than frequency response measurements.
And there are much more in FR than most people are aware of.
In many situations small FR deviations are heard as something else, such as increased resolution, more relaxed sound, change in soundstage or dynamics for example. To believe in this and realize this one has to perform a bunch of tests and knowing what you are doing.
This is a big part of all the audio myths flourishing.
Some people seems to like to have vodoo and mysticism in their lifes though and I guess they have the right to that. 🙂
/Peter
If anyone would like a sample of some very noisy cable... just let me know.
All you need is:
1) a high impedance loop... above 5K or so,
2) a signal around 0.5 Volts RMS,
3) a s/n ratio above 30 dB,
4) a 6 inch chunk of my special cable,
5) one half-functioning ear.
Email me for payment and shipping instructions:
1 chunk p/n: PB-001, Desc.: noisey cable, Price: 19.95 +shipping and handling. (10% DISCOUNT for PooClub members)
** I have only 80 chunks in stock... order NOW before existing inventory is exhausted!
** Orders placed before March 3rd, 2009 will be eligible for factory rebates up to 0.05$ per chunk (limit of 1 chunk)... a 0.251% savings! ACT NOW!
🙂
All you need is:
1) a high impedance loop... above 5K or so,
2) a signal around 0.5 Volts RMS,
3) a s/n ratio above 30 dB,
4) a 6 inch chunk of my special cable,
5) one half-functioning ear.
Email me for payment and shipping instructions:
1 chunk p/n: PB-001, Desc.: noisey cable, Price: 19.95 +shipping and handling. (10% DISCOUNT for PooClub members)
** I have only 80 chunks in stock... order NOW before existing inventory is exhausted!
** Orders placed before March 3rd, 2009 will be eligible for factory rebates up to 0.05$ per chunk (limit of 1 chunk)... a 0.251% savings! ACT NOW!
🙂
It is real fun.When someone commends on an experience of his,soooo many put him backs against the wall asking for scientific proof.When he commends on something proven(not by him of course,even copying/paste other's words 🙂...no hard feelings really ),he is again with backs against the wall........by the same friends who make use of their humour any way they can/want/like.....One of the reasons(among many others)that I like this forum.In the end,we all have "a planet"of our own where we live 🙂
i like the posts about the difference between what we can hear, and what is actually there. it's kinda like the flip side of the coin about what is there and what is audible to us.
sometimes our ears hear things that can't be measured (yet). other times, machines can measure things our ears only dream of.
good times.
sometimes our ears hear things that can't be measured (yet). other times, machines can measure things our ears only dream of.
good times.
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