Here are my speaker cables. I used 14 gauge solid copper wire and twisted them with a drill then put some heat shrink on them to keep them together and denote the channel identification. There are no connectors to get in the way and don't look half bad. They sound just as good as any audiophile cable I have tried in my system and better than a lot of them.
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Solid core cables have their "signature" and if this is what you like then you will surely like them more than any stranded cable no matter how "good" or "bad" this might be.Between similar solid cores now,my findings are that metal purity and insulation material,have an effect on sound.If this effect however justifies huge prices we all know it does not.
mark02131 said:
But you didn't mark which end is ^UP^... 😀
This can be important, since the electrons will "fall out" if you turn them the wrong way... and the sound might go backwards
kinda like what causes radioactivity to "fall-out".. hehe 😉
John L.
That's right polarity is so important, we wouldn't want them to flow up-stream or anything like that it will make the amp work so much harder. 🙂
Solid core cables have their "signature"
Do some blind testing, get somone else to swap the cables for you and try to determine when stranded or soild core are in the system.
Why simplify that solid core cables have a signature ?
Every component is a compromise of some sort in a system that converts audio frequencies into an electrical signal.
When you attempt to listen to stranded speaker cables, you are still listening to hundreds of metres of solid core in the inductor in the crossover. Likewise, when you listen with solid core speaker cables, you're just adding a few more feet of solid core on top of that.
If the recording studios use 1.00 per metre Klotz cables with 60pF per metre, then the clarity of the sound is not going to be any good if I have interconnects costing a 1000 pounds a pair. If your goal is to hear the poor cheap cable better, then I say don't waste your time or money. Change the things that do make a noticeable difference.
The replicated audio frequencies that eminate from the louspeaker cones are related to the signal that was recorded, how it was converted to musical data and then amplified and re-converted.
Generally, choice of cables are the least significant problem that anyone faces ( exception being a phono stage )
You can replace all the decoupling caps in your system with Hovland
or Auricaps. This will probably make a significant difference, but the sound is definately better if I by-pass them all togther. So the conductors in hi-fi are the least important problem and have the least significant return. Cheap general purpose op-amps and cheap
film capacitors, and OTT CD output stages, this is where real gains are to be had. I honestly believe that 2 meters of Nordost Valahalla does nothing better than 2 meters of studio grade Van damme, but you must do these tests blind.
Do some blind testing, get somone else to swap the cables for you and try to determine when stranded or soild core are in the system.
Why simplify that solid core cables have a signature ?
Every component is a compromise of some sort in a system that converts audio frequencies into an electrical signal.
When you attempt to listen to stranded speaker cables, you are still listening to hundreds of metres of solid core in the inductor in the crossover. Likewise, when you listen with solid core speaker cables, you're just adding a few more feet of solid core on top of that.
If the recording studios use 1.00 per metre Klotz cables with 60pF per metre, then the clarity of the sound is not going to be any good if I have interconnects costing a 1000 pounds a pair. If your goal is to hear the poor cheap cable better, then I say don't waste your time or money. Change the things that do make a noticeable difference.
The replicated audio frequencies that eminate from the louspeaker cones are related to the signal that was recorded, how it was converted to musical data and then amplified and re-converted.
Generally, choice of cables are the least significant problem that anyone faces ( exception being a phono stage )
You can replace all the decoupling caps in your system with Hovland
or Auricaps. This will probably make a significant difference, but the sound is definately better if I by-pass them all togther. So the conductors in hi-fi are the least important problem and have the least significant return. Cheap general purpose op-amps and cheap
film capacitors, and OTT CD output stages, this is where real gains are to be had. I honestly believe that 2 meters of Nordost Valahalla does nothing better than 2 meters of studio grade Van damme, but you must do these tests blind.
I have done so many blind tests in my life that I am in danger of getting blinded 🙂 Have I said anything about 1000 pound cable?
By "signature"I do not mean "coloration" or something bad.Solid core cables have their signature as do multistrand cables.And yes,even in a blind test between solid core/stranded I can't miss it in my system.I too use dolid core in some cases.I reply to you as it was I who said about signature of solid core cables.
By "signature"I do not mean "coloration" or something bad.Solid core cables have their signature as do multistrand cables.And yes,even in a blind test between solid core/stranded I can't miss it in my system.I too use dolid core in some cases.I reply to you as it was I who said about signature of solid core cables.
Then please explain to me why they sound different.
I'm not trying to pick on this one particular point about sonic signatures. I understand that a valve may exhibit some form
of acoustic feedback and one valve may be more microphonic than another. I am not at all convinced that a solid core cable can have such a sonic signature.
What does solid core do to the electrical signal that alters the sound in some way, and why does multi-stranded differ ?
Does the electrical signal alter in any way ?
Do all solid core cables exhibit this sound altering phenomonen ?
Does this only apply to OFC ?
Is it true for silver ?
When you do your blind testing, do you approach it in an objective way, something like a statistician would:
For example, get 10 pairs of solid core cables, and 10 pairs of stranded interconnects, all different brands, but all made from OFC. Get someone else to change the cables in no particular order, and repeat the test 10-20 times.
Are you are saying that all solid core cables alter the sound in a certain way, which differs to multi-stranded ?
If you think you can identify this, I will set up an experiment in my home along those lines above and we can publish the results here, perhaps ? How much are you prepared to bet that you can identify 90% of the stranded cables ?
I'm not trying to pick on this one particular point about sonic signatures. I understand that a valve may exhibit some form
of acoustic feedback and one valve may be more microphonic than another. I am not at all convinced that a solid core cable can have such a sonic signature.
What does solid core do to the electrical signal that alters the sound in some way, and why does multi-stranded differ ?
Does the electrical signal alter in any way ?
Do all solid core cables exhibit this sound altering phenomonen ?
Does this only apply to OFC ?
Is it true for silver ?
When you do your blind testing, do you approach it in an objective way, something like a statistician would:
For example, get 10 pairs of solid core cables, and 10 pairs of stranded interconnects, all different brands, but all made from OFC. Get someone else to change the cables in no particular order, and repeat the test 10-20 times.
Are you are saying that all solid core cables alter the sound in a certain way, which differs to multi-stranded ?
If you think you can identify this, I will set up an experiment in my home along those lines above and we can publish the results here, perhaps ? How much are you prepared to bet that you can identify 90% of the stranded cables ?
The phono stage is one case where the electrical characteristics of the cable are more relevant, especially it's capacitance.
Most phono stage designers understand the importance of the electrical characteristics of the cartridge and it is well known that you have to match the input impedance. The cartridge output signal is very low ,especially with MC and higher cable capacitance can affect the frequency response, the ability to drive the signal at the frequecny extremes can be affected and perceived as roll-off, and can act like a form of tone control
You are able to measure this and show the affect of high capacitance cables.
Most passive pre-amp designers know this too.
So yes, cable choice can be important, but it is only important that the cable posseses low capacitance, and is sheilded correctly, and is a conductor. The Rega RB900 uses Klotz cable and it one of the lowest capacitance ( 60pF/m ) going. There is no rocket science with cables, they're conductors that possess electrical characterisitics.
Most of the highest price interconnects share these exact same virtues, with added marketing BS.
Audiofools are easy targets .. so you can't blame the audio manufacturers and Hi-fi magazines for getting into bed together, to ensure their existance, but I ain't buying any of it. This is why I come to DIY AUDIO, to get away from this sort of nonsense ;-(
mwaters10 said:
It is not only tubes that are microphonic,cables can be microphonic too and good shielding does not help to this,but insulation material does,as it does to other factors too.Also,I don't think that tubes sound different because of microphony.I have made my choice of cables after listening to few under blind conditions,and yes someone else was doing the changes.After deciding on my cables,everytime I happen to compare cables,I do it in an objective way,as I do not have to worry about anything,just to have another experience in my system or a friend's system.When you know your system well,you don't need to change cables 20 times.If you need 20 times to take a decision,you are very lucky,just get the cheapest one🙂 IMO,most solid cores compared to most stranded,sound more controlled in their presentation of music harmonics.This may be or may be not beneficial to all systems.As this to me is clear enough,I am prepared to bet twice your bet if the challenge is between solid core and stranded cables.I have proposed a similar test in my house and with my system long before you did,but for obvious reasons you realize that this is not very likely to happen,it is not easy for anyone.Of course you are right that the usual and well proven RLC parameters,are of prime importance to the final "sound" of a cable or its signature🙂 As I always say to friends,one cable in a system cannot be a solution.One has to have the oportunity to "play"with as many cables as possible in all parts of his system,till,if he is patient,he finds the better combinations in terms of final system sound,and value.I agree with you that an "audiophool grade cable"is not and cannot be better,but I also believe that neither the cheapest offerings are good enough.As most things in life,the truth lies somewhere in between.
One last thing.I do not blame the cable manufacturers at all🙂 In fact I have studied this phenomenon very well and the answer is much more easy than you might think.For as long as "audiophools"are around and have to spend so much money,there is a slogan among sellers of such high priced cables.And the slogan
is"get their money,before someone else does"....😀
as far as measuring differences go, humans can only measure what they can think of measuring.
that's really enough said, but i will embellish a little.
sound systems are entropy victims. you are taking many sound sources, and focusing them into one time and space. to seperate them into their original time and space is what a system tries to do.
it's like mixing pepper and salt together in one shaker, and then trying to seperate them back into just salt, and just pepper.
now, it is an astonishing achievement that a stereo can even come close to a vague emulation of a live performance.
the 'ultimate' sound system would have an amp and speaker for each voice in the recording, ie, one for the bass drum, one for the snare, one for the vocalist, one for the clarinet, etc...and the speakers would be placed where the musicians were, ....in a room of the same shape and dimension...
not likely to happen, although i heard of a concert that was done this way in japan, long ago. (it was reportedly awesome)
so, short of that, we have the big compromise.
to say that measuring frequency response alone is the JUDGE DREDD of fidelity is the blind man and the elephant, and the elephant in the room rolled into one.
there is no measuring device i have ever heard of that can tell if the sound is 'good'. sound perception is subjective.
with my own ears i have walked away from a mix after a full day of mixing thinking it was totally awesome, only to return the next day to a horrible mix which focused only on the last thing i/we were focusing on, while other HUGE noises and yuck could were completely ignored.
that said, measuring devices are VERY useful, because when the ear has lost it's mind, the robot is unchanged.
get it?
anyone who says 'yes' should be commited.
rofl.
that's really enough said, but i will embellish a little.
sound systems are entropy victims. you are taking many sound sources, and focusing them into one time and space. to seperate them into their original time and space is what a system tries to do.
it's like mixing pepper and salt together in one shaker, and then trying to seperate them back into just salt, and just pepper.
now, it is an astonishing achievement that a stereo can even come close to a vague emulation of a live performance.
the 'ultimate' sound system would have an amp and speaker for each voice in the recording, ie, one for the bass drum, one for the snare, one for the vocalist, one for the clarinet, etc...and the speakers would be placed where the musicians were, ....in a room of the same shape and dimension...
not likely to happen, although i heard of a concert that was done this way in japan, long ago. (it was reportedly awesome)
so, short of that, we have the big compromise.
to say that measuring frequency response alone is the JUDGE DREDD of fidelity is the blind man and the elephant, and the elephant in the room rolled into one.
there is no measuring device i have ever heard of that can tell if the sound is 'good'. sound perception is subjective.
with my own ears i have walked away from a mix after a full day of mixing thinking it was totally awesome, only to return the next day to a horrible mix which focused only on the last thing i/we were focusing on, while other HUGE noises and yuck could were completely ignored.
that said, measuring devices are VERY useful, because when the ear has lost it's mind, the robot is unchanged.
get it?
anyone who says 'yes' should be commited.
rofl.
dukeoyork said:
That is why we have said many times here,that to be able to hear small diferences you first have to know how.I'm not saying this for you,because after a whole day's hard work,if you didn't make a
mistake,then you would be the robot🙂
No No NO NONONONONONO etc..
Cables are not microphonic, no more than my PCB tracks are.
They can be subject to vibration as is everything, but this does not affect the audio signal in it's electrical form in a conductor.
Come on, explain it.
How is the mechanical energy ( vibrations ) converted into electrical energy and then added to the electrical signal being sent in the conductor ?
Here is a simple test that will hopefully make you go away and re-evaluate what you are saying.
Tap your tonearm headshell when your amplifier is on, and note the tapping sound is picked up at the speaker output.
Now do the same to the speaker cable, and note that nothing is picked up in the loudspeaker.
If you tap the cable on your tonearm you might hear something, but that is because the frequencies disperse and are picked up by the coils of the cartrdige in much the same way as tapping the tonearm headshell. Do you see what I'm saying, there must be some form of mechanical to electrical conversion involved, a transducer or microphonic pick up to convert the mechanical energy into electrical.
Cables are not microphonic, no more than my PCB tracks are.
They can be subject to vibration as is everything, but this does not affect the audio signal in it's electrical form in a conductor.
Come on, explain it.
How is the mechanical energy ( vibrations ) converted into electrical energy and then added to the electrical signal being sent in the conductor ?
Here is a simple test that will hopefully make you go away and re-evaluate what you are saying.
Tap your tonearm headshell when your amplifier is on, and note the tapping sound is picked up at the speaker output.
Now do the same to the speaker cable, and note that nothing is picked up in the loudspeaker.
If you tap the cable on your tonearm you might hear something, but that is because the frequencies disperse and are picked up by the coils of the cartrdige in much the same way as tapping the tonearm headshell. Do you see what I'm saying, there must be some form of mechanical to electrical conversion involved, a transducer or microphonic pick up to convert the mechanical energy into electrical.
Here I am known as the "emperical"guy who usually seeks for answers not giving them🙂 In my mind,cables offer electrical and mechanical connection.You are right,I used wrong terminology.Through them I meant mechanical noises are transfered eventually to the speaker.Some believe that even speaker or power cables when exited add something to the final sound heard,by transfering it mechanically.This might be something that can perhaps be measured?
So sad...
It's all so very sad... soo veerry saad... another cable thread
this mindless "discussion" has occurred off and on for.. oh 20+ years.. starting with news groups back in the '80's... to it's logical (non) conclusion... and here it is again!
so veerryy saadd...😀
It's all so very sad... soo veerry saad... another cable thread
this mindless "discussion" has occurred off and on for.. oh 20+ years.. starting with news groups back in the '80's... to it's logical (non) conclusion... and here it is again!
so veerryy saadd...😀
you should hear the sound when I'm exited....when I hear something excitingly stupid.
I like excited cables - showing them some cable porn?
audio-kraut said:
Maybe you should ask those who make the claims?When you are trying to make hunour,first you have to have some sense of it.Yours seems to have been lost in your intelligence.
it's only sad when people stop talking because they think they 'know'.
some cables are blatantly microphonic. just something i've heard with bad cables. it is possible for a cable to mechanically induce noise into to the chain. with some bad cables, merely tapping on them will give you a tapping sound through the speakers,
and with that observation, the next that follows is, 'all cables are microphonic to some degree'. whether it is audible or measurable is no disproof of the fact that cables can introduce noise into the system.
perhaps that is why mapleshade suggests keeping their speaker cables off of the floor for best result. that's not an ad, as i've never heard their cables, merely visited their site.
i stick by my own theory that it's hard to get better bang for the buck than by buying the solid core 12 gauge used to wire houses with electricity.
some cables are blatantly microphonic. just something i've heard with bad cables. it is possible for a cable to mechanically induce noise into to the chain. with some bad cables, merely tapping on them will give you a tapping sound through the speakers,
and with that observation, the next that follows is, 'all cables are microphonic to some degree'. whether it is audible or measurable is no disproof of the fact that cables can introduce noise into the system.
perhaps that is why mapleshade suggests keeping their speaker cables off of the floor for best result. that's not an ad, as i've never heard their cables, merely visited their site.
i stick by my own theory that it's hard to get better bang for the buck than by buying the solid core 12 gauge used to wire houses with electricity.
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