I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jump to Latest
#2,721
MaVo said:


Maybe we should start selling high end audiophile quality air core cables, for no less than 5000$ per meter. :angel:
With this price tag, they should get raving reviews from all the usual suspects. :devilr:
Click to expand...


I wasn't talking about cables,I was talking about modern hi-fi equipment,that sound horrible,so better pull their cables out to make them shut up 🙂
 
#2,723
The only thing measurements prove is that you cannot measure all audible diferences.
Click to expand...

Wrong.
You definitely can measure to a higher degree of resolution than the ear -can you reliable hear beyond 22kHz? Can you discern higher % of whatever distortion then any test equipment?

The question simply is - are those measured differences actually audible.
That's all.


Do not throw red herrings around. They start to smell badly.
 
#2,724
audio-kraut said:


Wrong.
You definitely can measure to a higher degree of resolution than the ear -can you reliable hear beyond 22kHz? Can you discern higher % of whatever distortion then any test equipment?

The question simply is - are those measured differences actually audible.
That's all.


Do not throw red herrings around. They start to smell badly.
Click to expand...


I do not dissagree with you about the measurement equipment ability.For me,there is though another question except yours:
Are those audible differences actually measurable?That's all.


Now,about your last comment,I've admitted it many times here,my smelling is not so good as my herring......sorry,my hearing I meant 😀
 
#2,725
Panicos K said:
Panicos K said:



I do not dissagree with you about the measurement equipment ability.For me,there is though another question except yours:
Are those audible differences actually measurable?That's all.
Click to expand...
Should be 'are those measurable differences audible?' or more accurately the lack of, or very small measurable differences in fact audible? Especially when the changes made by cable substitution are oft described as very large.

In my experience, definitely no.
Click to expand...
 
#2,726
not much of a test

Panicos K said:

To: tnargs


The only thing measurements prove is that you cannot measure all audible diferences.I am one of the very few here who actually did tests,and also accepted many challenges.It is up to you to accept mine.As a non engineer,I've been thinking of ways to get some answers that real engineers cannot give.Last week,a very good friend and a good engineer who believes the same things as you do,was here at my house with two more friends.I asked him to tell me about his opinion on two cartridges after listening to them.I had both on headshells for easy changes.He wasn't supposed to know which cartridge was in use.Without being noticed,I have left the second cartridge on a shelf behind him,and the "test"began.He also did not have any visual contact with the turntable.I was "changing "cartridges whenever he was telling me.What I was actually changing was the tonearm cable,my turntable has RCA output cockets.He got five out of five and he was shocked when I tokd him what he was listenig to.And to prove to him that his hearing was better than his measurements,I showed him the second cartridge behind him.There are many engineers among you who would hear what my engineer friend did,but their brains tell then otherwise,not to mention their heart ego when they have to believe their senses.For me the blind test has been successfully done with an "extremist" engineer under test.Coins always have two sides.You are on the one,I'm on the other.Some day you will be on the other side,but you have to give your senses an explanation why it took you so long to be "human",not a machine 🙂
Click to expand...

This doesn't "prove" anything, other than that poorly conceived and executed "tests" can produce useless results when applied to anyone other than those involved in the test. IOW, your test confirms what you already believe, and that the testee was deceived successfully given the deception of the test.

John L.
 
#2,727
Brett said:
Should be 'are those measurable differences audible?' or more accurately the lack of, or very small measurable differences in fact audible? Especially when the changes made by cable substitution are oft described as very large.

In my experience, definitely no.
Click to expand...


Even as one of those who claim they hear differences,I cannot say that differences are huge,but in the cases where I have tried and bought a cable,they were useful and welcome.It is wrong and silly to think that someone who accepts cable differences,has nothing else important to do than comparing cables.I have said it in another post and repeat it here,I doubt if ANY salesman will ever manage to sell me a cable.I,as most,am working on a good equipment matching and leave the cables last.Nor I am rich as someone told me in other posts🙂 So,I agre with you that differences are mostly small,but if as a final thing it offers an improvement(not just change)it is up to the individual to decide if he wants to spend on them.
As for my question,what I meant is that,I believe,that some audible differences that cannot be measured today,they will be measurable tomorrow,perhaps with more advanced measuring methods.This has been the case in many cases in the past,for various "phenomena".For your question,I believe that most measurable fifferences that have to do with RLC are audible.
 
#2,728
Re: not much of a test

auplater said:


This doesn't "prove" anything, other than that poorly conceived and executed "tests" can produce useless results when applied to anyone other than those involved in the test. IOW, your test confirms what you already believe, and that the testee was deceived successfully given the deception of the test.

John L.
Click to expand...


Listening to some cables to decide which one is better for your system,does not mean that you are also a "cable test maniac".A logical person does this only once,and then he just enjoys his music.Yes,the testee was deceived,but does this mean that he didn't hear a difference?I am sure he did,and he did score 5/5.If you ask me,any test is useless and deceiving,leading to useless results.The diference with my friend is that he has heard cable diferences,when he thought he has heard cartridge differences.In any case,he did hear the differences.In no case,I have told him I had changed the "cartridge"and didn't,because the idea was to see if he could tell a difference.
 
#2,729
audio-kraut said:


Wrong.
You definitely can measure to a higher degree of resolution than the ear -can you reliable hear beyond 22kHz? Can you discern higher % of whatever distortion then any test equipment?

The question simply is - are those measured differences actually audible.
That's all.


Do not throw red herrings around. They start to smell badly.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Bandwidth and distortion figures do not explain everything we hear.

Merely relying on measurement equipment for accuracy in reproduction of music may be comforting to the engineer but does not in any way guarantee faithful reproduction of the source material.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

Cheers, 😉
 
#2,730
Panicos, I think what our auric compatriot was trying to suggest is that your test had no controls and a lot of room for cues. There are ways of running a test like that so that the results are meaningful (even if the subject believes that it's a transducer swap instead of a wire swap). Most people don't want to bother, and I don't blame them- controlled tests are a pain to set up and perform, not nearly as much fun as listening to music.
 
#2,731
SY said:
Panicos, I think what our auric compatriot was trying to suggest is that your test had no controls and a lot of room for cues. There are ways of running a test like that so that the results are meaningful (even if the subject believes that it's a transducer swap instead of a wire swap). Most people don't want to bother, and I don't blame them- controlled tests are a pain to set up and perform, not nearly as much fun as listening to music.
Click to expand...


Idon't blame them that they don't bother.Believe me,I don't bother either🙂 I haven't claimed that that was the ideal test,I just mentioned it as a reply to the " HO HO HO" post🙂
The engineer needs a controlled test to prove something,with someone elses ears?And let us for a moment suppose that we find someone who,under controlled test,surprises us all by scoring 100%.What will this mean,and to whom?
 
#2,733
audio-kraut said:


Correct, but again, whatever we want to measure - and most of this was addressed before - can be measured. The question still remains the same: is it audible in a controlled and blinded test environment?
Click to expand...


Hi,

IMHO, it should be audible but it probably won't be to everyone.

Allow me to explain, just as we don't or can't measure the way we appreciate food I feel we shouldn't overanalyse the way we listen to music either.

In theory a perfect rendition of the source material should be possible, technically speaking, however when faced with a recording (any recording) we can only admit it's ultimately a flawed copy of the real event.

Cables have little merit to me as a person if they can't pervey what's been recorded so the real question is not whether A or B is audible or not (I'm sure it is to some but not to all of us) but whether A or B is the better conductor of the "auric" (to paraphrase SY) truth.

As paradoxical as it may seem the ultimate achievement of any audio component lays with it's ability to be truly and utterly inauble. To everyone.....

By judging the cable we're also judging the person listening to it.....


Cheers, 😉
 
#2,734
Panicos K said:

To: tnargs
The only thing measurements prove is that you cannot measure all audible diferences.......
Click to expand...

I wrote only about listening.

You pretended I said something about measurements.

That is called "straw man argument" and is not courteous.

Your experiment with tonearm cable swapping should work as you described. It is no surprise. The frequency response of a phono cartridge-cable combination is very sensitive to the R and C of the cable. It is like turning the treble up and down on your preamp, if you have the luxury of tone controls.
 
#2,735
tnargs said:


I wrote only about listening.

You pretended I said something about measurements.

That is called "straw man argument" and is not courteous.

Your experiment with tonearm cable swapping should work as you described. It is no surprise. The frequency response of a phono cartridge-cable combination is very sensitive to the R and C of the cable. It is like turning the treble up and down on your preamp, if you have the luxury of tone controls.
Click to expand...


Right,sorry about that,surely it was intentional.I just assumed that as in most other posts,you meant that since measurements do not show a few audible diferences,then it must be an illusion.
On the other hand,the choice of the two cables was very careful from the same make and of very similar specs.What you say is true,but if this was the case with my friend then he has heard the diference of 5-6 pf and 2-3 ohms/Kilometer🙂
 
#2,739
I agree with the very first post.
It's not such a remarkable thing that the human mind can be subjectively lead to discover some discernable change when an upgrade occurs. The audio industry has exploited this weakness in us all to some extent with some extravagant claims.

If I didn't already know that my speaker cables, interconnects, mains cables are not significantly altering the sound of my system, I'd be rewinding the hundreds of meters of inductor coils in the crossovers with silver litz and hardwiring every single component, and replacing the thousands of metres of Electricity board power cables to the sub-station.
Even if I did all that, the sound quality would exhibit such a small difference to the fundmental characteristic frequency response of the combined affect of the hundreds of active and passive components in my system. If you want to improve your system to any significant extent, you have to look at the design and use of components in the system. The sonic charateristics of the audio system are far more influenced by this. If there is a problem driving the signal to your interconnects, then there is a fair chance that the
problem is in the output stage of the connecting equipment.

Everyone should read this before going out and buying Nordost Valhala, these people are scam artists.
http://www.lampizator.eu/HERESY/heresy.html
 
#2,740
If I understood well what you said,I think it is very simplified to think that everything in sound has to do with frequency response.There are so many things in audio that offer you superb clarity and detail while at the same time might give the impression of being "dull".Not sure if you are wrong,but if you are right,an equalizer with nice components would do the trick.
On the other hand,if you own say an amplifier with ELNA silmic,you just don't replace them with Black Gates or vice versa.True though you can replace cheap caps etc.... but only in a piece of hifi that will appreciate such high quality components.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom