Shaun said:
Hardly. It belabors the obvious on the presumption 'the other side' is too stupid to know simple ground zero facts. Worse yet such gaffs come from someone claiming reason's high ground in defense of science. The irony...
Shaun said:
Correction: I meant anecdotal evidence.
rdf said:
You miss the point of my post: the discussion needs to move beyond the point where it is currently stuck.
Eva said:
Have you done anything of the above in any of your equipment?If you have let us know of some details.
You will be surprised to learn how difficult it is to sell a cable to the true audiophile.Only think that it has to be audibly better than the ones he already has.
Panicos K said:
It will foremost be judged by how much it shines, weighs and costs, and how its packed
Well, ofcourse not all think like that, but many do, but on the other hand they may not be the true audiophiles...is there in this such people called wanna be´s and false audiophiles...well, in the end they may get there too
tinitus said:
True,many do.These guys usually don't even listen to what they are paying for.In most cases a magazine "reviewer" has already decided for them🙂
Certainly not the kind of true audiophile.
This has been by far the most entertaining thread so far.
A General comment:
I'm starting to think the cable theories (Or beliefs) are stumbling into the realms of alchemy practices of old rathur than electronics and related mettalurgy. (Hey I wonder if lead connectors can be made to sound like the gold ones?
)
I still think we need to get the psychologists involved.
I've read a few articles on psychoacoustics and I realise that the ear is a fascinating apparatus as well as it's connection to the brain. A few accoustic studies have been conducted and the evidence gathered quite interesting. As I understand, the ear is a remarkable organ but the brain interperets the info and is well capable of telling you what you are hearing, and want to hear.
Many listening tests were conducted with many subjects or listeners, at the same time, and collective opinion was gathered. These were more valuable than just one person listening to equipment in an un-controlled environment.
You cold get away with less if you get paid to do reviews for a hi-fi magazine and you are also willing to tell me that by puting your CD player on spikes will improve its sound.
Jokes aside, I've actually seen sutch an article)
Without un-biased controlled listening tests it's still individual claims versus science.
Cheers,
Carl
A General comment:
I'm starting to think the cable theories (Or beliefs) are stumbling into the realms of alchemy practices of old rathur than electronics and related mettalurgy. (Hey I wonder if lead connectors can be made to sound like the gold ones?
)I still think we need to get the psychologists involved.
I've read a few articles on psychoacoustics and I realise that the ear is a fascinating apparatus as well as it's connection to the brain. A few accoustic studies have been conducted and the evidence gathered quite interesting. As I understand, the ear is a remarkable organ but the brain interperets the info and is well capable of telling you what you are hearing, and want to hear.
Many listening tests were conducted with many subjects or listeners, at the same time, and collective opinion was gathered. These were more valuable than just one person listening to equipment in an un-controlled environment.
You cold get away with less if you get paid to do reviews for a hi-fi magazine and you are also willing to tell me that by puting your CD player on spikes will improve its sound.
Jokes aside, I've actually seen sutch an article)
Without un-biased controlled listening tests it's still individual claims versus science.
Cheers,
Carl
Dynsdale
I have not seen any "unbeliever" here to take metallurgy seriously.Have you?Metallurgy here is not just copper and silver,but purity,manufacturing methods and maybe more for those who know better.
How can a "controlled test" that is set-up aiming to prove wrong those who can hear differences,be un-biased?
An audio system that has taken a lot of time to be carefully tuned,is not at all the same with switching 10 times in 10 minutes a junk-box called ABX "tool"
If any of you can handle his expenses to Cyprus,I can take the challenge in my room,my system and choice of two cables,without junk-boxes involved.Simple and plain cable change everytime.
Local food and drinks on me🙂
I have not seen any "unbeliever" here to take metallurgy seriously.Have you?Metallurgy here is not just copper and silver,but purity,manufacturing methods and maybe more for those who know better.
How can a "controlled test" that is set-up aiming to prove wrong those who can hear differences,be un-biased?
An audio system that has taken a lot of time to be carefully tuned,is not at all the same with switching 10 times in 10 minutes a junk-box called ABX "tool"
If any of you can handle his expenses to Cyprus,I can take the challenge in my room,my system and choice of two cables,without junk-boxes involved.Simple and plain cable change everytime.
Local food and drinks on me🙂
Internal wiring of amplifiers is just as important, if not more important than interconnect cables.
Different plate materials in capacitors are very readily audible, even to the unpractised ear.
If you look at a Wima catalogue, you will see that they not only specify the plate materials of their various models of film caps, but also the materials and manufacturing process of the leads. That must be of some importance, or they would not bother.
Unfortunately, there is a great deal of wire in any transformer, therefore, unless one is very rich, there is not much opportunity to improve upon that. Luckily, most manufacturers use high grade copper wire of better than 99% purity. (BTW, why do you think the conductors in CAT5 and similar network cabling are made of 3 nines copper wire? Do you think the manufacturers are wasting their money unnecessarily? Isn't it more likely that they have proved that the transmission of digital data is more accurate over long distances using better quality conductors, and if so, is it not possible that audio signals might also benefit thereby?)
Sure there is a lot of wire bringing the current to your wall-plug. What is worse is that the current may be affected by all sorts of other noise, particularly if you live near an industrial area. (Ever heard you fridge in the midst of your music?) Our mains-supply carries all sorts of different frequencies of unwanted interference along with it, and it is my contention that cables do not add to or amplify some of these frequencies selectively, but rather filter out others selectively. Those that reach the amplifying devices are amplified along with the music. After all, the audio signal itself is not amplified, it merely modulates the current from the power supply.
Voice-coils are only used to create a magnetic field, therefore I don't think the quality of wire would have much effect on sound, but if anyone has the opportunity to experiment with this, I would be very interested in their findings.
The wires you can't see? I have reaped excellent results from upgrading the wiring inside amplifiers, preamplifiers and speakers. The results have been verified by others as well, so I know they are real - and yes, these were blind tests, where the subjects were not told which channel was modified, nor what differences I had heard.
There seems to be some suspicion of the so-called "golden ear". I think that some people are more attuned than others to the subtle differences in sound systems, but this does not necessarily mean that they have better hearing or "golden ears". I think it is a matter of learning to focus the attention on the sound. The more one practices it, the easier it becomes (at least, this has been my experience).
Different plate materials in capacitors are very readily audible, even to the unpractised ear.
If you look at a Wima catalogue, you will see that they not only specify the plate materials of their various models of film caps, but also the materials and manufacturing process of the leads. That must be of some importance, or they would not bother.
Unfortunately, there is a great deal of wire in any transformer, therefore, unless one is very rich, there is not much opportunity to improve upon that. Luckily, most manufacturers use high grade copper wire of better than 99% purity. (BTW, why do you think the conductors in CAT5 and similar network cabling are made of 3 nines copper wire? Do you think the manufacturers are wasting their money unnecessarily? Isn't it more likely that they have proved that the transmission of digital data is more accurate over long distances using better quality conductors, and if so, is it not possible that audio signals might also benefit thereby?)
Sure there is a lot of wire bringing the current to your wall-plug. What is worse is that the current may be affected by all sorts of other noise, particularly if you live near an industrial area. (Ever heard you fridge in the midst of your music?) Our mains-supply carries all sorts of different frequencies of unwanted interference along with it, and it is my contention that cables do not add to or amplify some of these frequencies selectively, but rather filter out others selectively. Those that reach the amplifying devices are amplified along with the music. After all, the audio signal itself is not amplified, it merely modulates the current from the power supply.
Voice-coils are only used to create a magnetic field, therefore I don't think the quality of wire would have much effect on sound, but if anyone has the opportunity to experiment with this, I would be very interested in their findings.
The wires you can't see? I have reaped excellent results from upgrading the wiring inside amplifiers, preamplifiers and speakers. The results have been verified by others as well, so I know they are real - and yes, these were blind tests, where the subjects were not told which channel was modified, nor what differences I had heard.
There seems to be some suspicion of the so-called "golden ear". I think that some people are more attuned than others to the subtle differences in sound systems, but this does not necessarily mean that they have better hearing or "golden ears". I think it is a matter of learning to focus the attention on the sound. The more one practices it, the easier it becomes (at least, this has been my experience).
I see there are a couple of posters cropping up from Cape Town. If any of you guys would like to conduct some cable testing (blind or otherwise), my system is modular and available. Drop me a mail and we can set it up.
Dynsdale said:I still think we need to get the psychologists involved.
Carl
Certainly, as long as everyone has a turn on the couch. 'Objective' opinions offered here are often written as if only the other side has a psyche, or that simply knowing the pitfalls makes one magically immune unless the 'knower' is also claims cable differences. Pretty confusing actually.
Hi,
It does have an impact on the sound but replacing copper wire for silver in a voice coil will also give you a totally new speaker with a new set of parameters for you to rethink the filtering of the unit and so on.
Sure.
That's what makes point to point wire so "audiophile friendly", valve circuits in particular.
You can replace every inch of mediocre off the shelf wire with whatever you feel is best suited.
In general, replacing copper wires inside an amp or preamp for silver ones will essentially shorten the signal path.
There's alot of tweaking you can do untill you're stuck with what's used inside your components and that's where the special audiograde components manufacturers can step in.
You can make better tube sockets, treat the contacts with contact enhancing materials. The list is endless really.
After you've done all that and you're finally happy with the sound of your system you'll want to buy a gun and shoot the sound engineers that fell asleep during those recording sessions.....
To me a good qualifier for a revealing system is one that allows to tell the difference between mikes, tell you about the acoustics of a given venue without robbing the system of its ability to carry a tune.
And that ain't as simple as some may think....
Cheers, 😉
It does have an impact on the sound but replacing copper wire for silver in a voice coil will also give you a totally new speaker with a new set of parameters for you to rethink the filtering of the unit and so on.
Sure.
That's what makes point to point wire so "audiophile friendly", valve circuits in particular.
You can replace every inch of mediocre off the shelf wire with whatever you feel is best suited.
In general, replacing copper wires inside an amp or preamp for silver ones will essentially shorten the signal path.
There's alot of tweaking you can do untill you're stuck with what's used inside your components and that's where the special audiograde components manufacturers can step in.
You can make better tube sockets, treat the contacts with contact enhancing materials. The list is endless really.
After you've done all that and you're finally happy with the sound of your system you'll want to buy a gun and shoot the sound engineers that fell asleep during those recording sessions.....
To me a good qualifier for a revealing system is one that allows to tell the difference between mikes, tell you about the acoustics of a given venue without robbing the system of its ability to carry a tune.
And that ain't as simple as some may think....
Cheers, 😉
hihopes said:
The only diyaudio member who seriously explored silver wound transformers, Thomas, has been abscent from the scene for a while. I sincerely hope he is well.
There is a company recoiling Lowther drive units with silver. Interesting reviews.
I had always had the impression that a Lowther PM7A was a PM6A with silver wired coil, but that may have changed over the years
I think there was something up with Supravox making some of their drivers special with silver wired coil and paper former, and that they had the coils custom made by PHY, which would also make them a contender fore silver coils
Could be wrong though...btw, I wouldnt be surprised if AudioNote would have something too
Well, I just looked and it seem they do
I think there was something up with Supravox making some of their drivers special with silver wired coil and paper former, and that they had the coils custom made by PHY, which would also make them a contender fore silver coils
Could be wrong though...btw, I wouldnt be surprised if AudioNote would have something too
Well, I just looked and it seem they do
tinitus said:
Hi,
The idea stems from the MC manufactures (the artisans, not the industry) and you carried that over to an aftersales service first untill we convinced some speaker unit manufacturers to offer the same service or to build units using superior (to our mind) conductors for voice coils and x-over inductors.
As said, it's not a simple matter, especially where woofers are concerned, as you need to consider a number of factors....
Cheers, 😉
Panicos K said:
Have you done anything of the above in any of your equipment?If you have let us know of some details.
You will be surprised to learn how difficult it is to sell a cable to the true audiophile.Only think that it has to be audibly better than the ones he already has.
Audiophiles don't care about what they don't see or don't understand, and they have a really vague understanding of the equipment they use.
Interconnects are given special attention just because they are one of the main points of interaction between the user and the equipment. If other more important components are never considered, then something is really wrong with all the interconnect business... (Which is the sad truth).
Not stirring, honest!
Hi all. I must admit a bit of mischief got the better of me in my last post.
Hi Panicos
I also do not believe in Santa or leprechauns!
As an "unbeliever" or perhaps unconvinced:
I know the basic metallurgy. Purity, especialy wrt oxides, and conductivity, skin effect etc.. (Micro diodes??)
Silver approx 10% more conductive than Cu, conductivity probably the most important in speaker cables as far as logic and science go.
I'm no polymer expert but I know teflon is good and a dream to solder, no creep. Just wonderful. But also a good dielectric so capacitance is less of a bother.
Personally I have speaker cables I've made up out of discarded power cable designed for 3500Vac with teflon insulation and 5mm silver plated copper braided conductor. Good industrial stuff.
Souns ok to me even though I diddn't shell out 1000nds and diddn't have to tell myself they were good to justify to myself the expence.
I was trained as a radio tech and I'm aware of transmission line theory and how inportant it is to UHF, VHF and even lower but to audio, I have my doubts.(especially low Z like speakers)
-------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE]Originally posted by Panicos K [ Dynsdale
I have not seen any "unbeliever" here to take metallurgy seriously.Have you?Metallurgy here is not just copper and silver,but purity,manufacturing methods and maybe more for those who know better.
How can a "controlled test" that is set-up aiming to prove wrong those who can hear differences, be un-biased?
If any of you can handle his expenses to Cyprus,I can take the challenge in my room,my system and choice of two cables,without junk-boxes involved.Simple and plain cable change everytime.
-Local food and drinks on me🙂 [/QUOTE]---------------------------------------------------------------------
What I meant here is that with many subjects one can get a better result, for that very reason, yes people are biassed.
Also the tests mentioned should be conducted by people who are interested in the outcome, not out to prove something or no cash involved.
(Perfect world maybe)
The aim shouldn't be to prove anyone wrong but just to collect info. Heck, if people can hear the differences I'm also interested!
Love to give you a visit.
Don't get me wrong though this business fascinates me
and I'm keen to hear what people think. I'm certainly not out to insult anyone.
I detect a bit of irony in that.😉
If not, no lies I wish I could remember the issue and you could get a look just for a laugh.
I suppose the boy had to earn his pay bless him, no judjement there. Also these mags rely alot on their advertisers so maybe their writers feel the need to embellish a little.
What I do find strange is that "transmisston lines" that are good enough for where they are most critical, (Radio and sattelite comms) won't be good enough for some audiophile people.😱
Cheers all,
Carl
Hi all. I must admit a bit of mischief got the better of me in my last post.
Hi Panicos
I also do not believe in Santa or leprechauns!
As an "unbeliever" or perhaps unconvinced:
I know the basic metallurgy. Purity, especialy wrt oxides, and conductivity, skin effect etc.. (Micro diodes??)
Silver approx 10% more conductive than Cu, conductivity probably the most important in speaker cables as far as logic and science go.
I'm no polymer expert but I know teflon is good and a dream to solder, no creep. Just wonderful. But also a good dielectric so capacitance is less of a bother.
Personally I have speaker cables I've made up out of discarded power cable designed for 3500Vac with teflon insulation and 5mm silver plated copper braided conductor. Good industrial stuff.
Souns ok to me even though I diddn't shell out 1000nds and diddn't have to tell myself they were good to justify to myself the expence.
I was trained as a radio tech and I'm aware of transmission line theory and how inportant it is to UHF, VHF and even lower but to audio, I have my doubts.(especially low Z like speakers)
-------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE]Originally posted by Panicos K [ Dynsdale
I have not seen any "unbeliever" here to take metallurgy seriously.Have you?Metallurgy here is not just copper and silver,but purity,manufacturing methods and maybe more for those who know better.
How can a "controlled test" that is set-up aiming to prove wrong those who can hear differences, be un-biased?
If any of you can handle his expenses to Cyprus,I can take the challenge in my room,my system and choice of two cables,without junk-boxes involved.Simple and plain cable change everytime.
-Local food and drinks on me🙂 [/QUOTE]---------------------------------------------------------------------
What I meant here is that with many subjects one can get a better result, for that very reason, yes people are biassed.
Also the tests mentioned should be conducted by people who are interested in the outcome, not out to prove something or no cash involved.
(Perfect world maybe)The aim shouldn't be to prove anyone wrong but just to collect info. Heck, if people can hear the differences I'm also interested!
Love to give you a visit.
Don't get me wrong though this business fascinates me
and I'm keen to hear what people think. I'm certainly not out to insult anyone.
analog_sa said:
I detect a bit of irony in that.😉
If not, no lies I wish I could remember the issue and you could get a look just for a laugh.
I suppose the boy had to earn his pay bless him, no judjement there. Also these mags rely alot on their advertisers so maybe their writers feel the need to embellish a little.
What I do find strange is that "transmisston lines" that are good enough for where they are most critical, (Radio and sattelite comms) won't be good enough for some audiophile people.😱
Cheers all,
Carl
There will always be believers and non-believers. It's just the nature of technical and commercial products.
For example some actually believe the "imperfection of digital" and tweak their CD using blue pen. As now I am listening to my 24/96kHz recordings from a file server using wireless connection. I am now wondering how to "tweak" the air to make my system sound better. Perhaps fill my house with helium or wait for a spray-on product to deoxidize the air? 😀
For example some actually believe the "imperfection of digital" and tweak their CD using blue pen. As now I am listening to my 24/96kHz recordings from a file server using wireless connection. I am now wondering how to "tweak" the air to make my system sound better. Perhaps fill my house with helium or wait for a spray-on product to deoxidize the air? 😀
Re: Not stirring, honest!
Good post good point. High End audio likes to borrow ideas and techniques from scientific electronics, anything above the broadcast band is fair game. I wonder if there is even one case of the scientific community using something that audiophiles have discovered about cables. If there are effects at audio frequencies there must be implications for RF. If there was any real knowledge discovered by audiophiles about cables I am sure that it would be embraced by the scientific community. Are there any examples?
Dynsdale said:
Good post good point. High End audio likes to borrow ideas and techniques from scientific electronics, anything above the broadcast band is fair game. I wonder if there is even one case of the scientific community using something that audiophiles have discovered about cables. If there are effects at audio frequencies there must be implications for RF. If there was any real knowledge discovered by audiophiles about cables I am sure that it would be embraced by the scientific community. Are there any examples?
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