Hi,
May I suggest your answer to be pretty meaningless as it is completely beside the point.
Read and reread then maybe, just maybe, you will understand?
While we're at it, measure the "foot tapping" quality of that odd LP12 TT, measure the exact placement of the musicians in an imaginary space, measure the air surrounding them etc.
Show me one measurement that I or anyone else can read that shows me time and again that you can actually measure what you think we all imagine?
Show me exactly how you can tell what is more realistic or not, just from looking at your measurements.
After that, ask me for proof of what I can hear or not and you will prove me beyond reasonable doubt that I am completely deaf, totally delusional and so on.
Cheers,
Speakers create sound NOTHING else. The do not create "realism" so your post is actually meaningless other then some kind of audiophile spin to once againt deflect the truth.
Your brain is doing all that imagination stuff.
We can measure EVERYTHING the speaker produces, hence we can measure what any cable does to the signal.
We can not measure your brain, nor do we want too
May I suggest your answer to be pretty meaningless as it is completely beside the point.
Read and reread then maybe, just maybe, you will understand?
While we're at it, measure the "foot tapping" quality of that odd LP12 TT, measure the exact placement of the musicians in an imaginary space, measure the air surrounding them etc.
Show me one measurement that I or anyone else can read that shows me time and again that you can actually measure what you think we all imagine?
Show me exactly how you can tell what is more realistic or not, just from looking at your measurements.
After that, ask me for proof of what I can hear or not and you will prove me beyond reasonable doubt that I am completely deaf, totally delusional and so on.
Cheers,
I do have a mixed position on the testing both in DBT and straight FR. I had to develop my own cables because I was faced with being able to hear differences in speaker cables. The need arose from learning how to voice an OPT to neutral and cables were an impediment to that.
I have been forced to learn that measurements really can provide a record of differences in sound. The EnABL dust up has provided a very pointed lesson to me. A test by John K, one of the fairest dissenters on that thread, literally proved the existence of that speaker processes effects upon in room sounds. What it did not prove was the extent of the subjective audibility of the measured difference.
Here for those interested Enable Tests
The upcoming test that Sy is moderating would be a great example of a proper DBT If Simon is still willing and Tom can be convinced, sending the samples off to Simon for objective measurement, since he has shown that his equipment can actually measure cable differences, would be a clearly needed next step. I would be willing to bet that Simon's measurements will show differences, even if the DBT fails to do so. I would also be very impressed if the objective and subjective tests can correspond to each other.
Bud
I have been forced to learn that measurements really can provide a record of differences in sound. The EnABL dust up has provided a very pointed lesson to me. A test by John K, one of the fairest dissenters on that thread, literally proved the existence of that speaker processes effects upon in room sounds. What it did not prove was the extent of the subjective audibility of the measured difference.
Here for those interested Enable Tests
The upcoming test that Sy is moderating would be a great example of a proper DBT If Simon is still willing and Tom can be convinced, sending the samples off to Simon for objective measurement, since he has shown that his equipment can actually measure cable differences, would be a clearly needed next step. I would be willing to bet that Simon's measurements will show differences, even if the DBT fails to do so. I would also be very impressed if the objective and subjective tests can correspond to each other.
Bud
Don't worry John, I see nothing cute in anything you said and I'm glad you used a respectful tone. You come off as respectful anyhow and it's appreciated. I think that's the only chance for any progress if there actually is any. What I think about the New Coke/Coke Classic controversy is of no consequence to the facts. I remember I could taste a difference and so could the reported blind tasters. I remember I preferred Coke Classic and even being a bit upset that they wanted to change it to this new stuff which I didn't enjoy as much, but the blind tasters reportedly preferred the New, II, or whatever or was called Coke. Perhaps this is just another case of people preferring accuracy (know that statement is a joke) and we want the accurate Coke just like the original. In any case it looks like they did lose face when they brought back Coke Classic.
I personally thought no better or worse of them. I can't say I prefer old Coke at any time. I'm a big fan of the bubbles.Many blind studies show difference and many even state a preference. The fact remains that no SBTs or DBTs of audio cable studies that I have found or anyone else has reported do demonstrate an audible difference. I'll admit to believing a difference existed in audio cables when sighted.
Heck, I've even had a preference. To me preference is subjective even though accuracy has been shown to be preferred in blind audio tests. I want accuracy if for no other reason than it shows respect for the artists who created it. Listen to their work in full as best you can. Of course I'm sure that any artist would be happy if you take the time to examine their work under any light or on any playback device. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd prefer any criticisms come after being viewed/heard in full or as close of an approximation as possible. In that sense there could be a good reason to buy a different cable based on absolute accuracy, but if a difference is too minute to be demonstrated audible then I see no reason for it.Hopefully our listener in training will be able to hear a difference in our own DIY Audio test (not that I have any part in it other than encouraging its occurrence). If not I'll thank Tom for saving me money and a lot time. If so I'll thank him for affirming the beliefs of so many. Either way at least he has the guts to cut the crap and produce something fruitful for this hobby. Same goes for SY, David Carlstrom, Matrix HiFi, and the plethora of industry professionals who have conducted controlled studies and posted them for all to see and learn.
Dan
PM's are private messages not to be brought into the threads. If anyone has evidence of posting of PM's or the private information contained within, please bring these to the moderators attention. Please offer us proof of the offense. This is a binnable offense and if deemed serious enough by the mods, an offense by which a member can be banned.
Sorry Cal, but I don't buy this. If someone sends me an unsolicited PM it's confidential. Thats unreasonable - they should not send meassages that they don't want to get out.
Excellent idea Bud. Either way we'd know how little difference we can or can't hear in cables and how large of a subjective impact they have on Tom.
Dan
I am curious. Is this a legal concern or or is this an ethical concern? Is this a written rule somewhere? If someone called me a bum in private, it's not allowable to tell others that this person called me a bum?
PM's are private messages not to be brought into the threads. If anyone has evidence of posting of PM's or the private information contained within, please bring these to the moderators attention. Please offer us proof of the offense. This is a binnable offense and if deemed serious enough by the mods, an offense by which a member can be banned.
PM means "personal message" or "private mail", you name it... either way, it stays private
Like it or not, its forum policy
If a members sends me a PM, I consider it confidential
Anything else would be disrespectful
soongsc, the kind of mail you point at would best be descibed as "hatemails", and a totally different issue
Though, if I should be so unfortunate to get one some day, I would certainly be the last to publish it
Like it or not, its forum policy
If a members sends me a PM, I consider it confidential
Anything else would be disrespectful
soongsc, the kind of mail you point at would best be descibed as "hatemails", and a totally different issue
Though, if I should be so unfortunate to get one some day, I would certainly be the last to publish it
Hi soongsc,
The same thing holds for the general members here. You can not post an email from another member unless you have permission and a request to do so from the originator of the message. For me, I'm worried that you would even question why the posting of a private message might be a problem. Please, can you clarify what your beliefs on this really are? Note that you can PM me and it will remain confidential.
Hi Earl,
Just don't do this folks. I don't think it reflects well on anyone.
-Chris
Both I think at one time. From where I'm standing, it is a strong ethical issue. It's also a moral issue and something that just isn't done. Not quite cricket, you know. If an email is posted, depending on the severity, the subject of a ban often comes up. After all, the moderating team absolutely must hold member email as confidential. How would you feel if you had a problem with a member, contacted a moderator to help out and then discover that the information you sent was shared with the member you had problems with? How about the forum in general? You have an expectation of privacy, otherwise you would have started a public thread, right? Now I have to ask you, would you contact a moderator for anything if you knew the information you are sharing might be posted in public for all to see? There must be both a trust and a professional bearing with both the moderating team and also each and every member.
The same thing holds for the general members here. You can not post an email from another member unless you have permission and a request to do so from the originator of the message. For me, I'm worried that you would even question why the posting of a private message might be a problem. Please, can you clarify what your beliefs on this really are? Note that you can PM me and it will remain confidential.
Hi Earl,
I have to say that your comment worries me some. No offense, but I find that attitude somewhat irresponsible. This is something you learn at home. This isn't meant to be a comment about you personally Earl, but rather on the subject itself. Posting PMs is an activity that shouldn't need any explanation as to the whys or why nots.
Just don't do this folks. I don't think it reflects well on anyone.
-Chris
I am not talking about PM or mail sent to the moderator. I am talking about what is sent between members. I assume the the moderators go by the Privacy Statement.
I am just trying to understand what you guys are thinking. I agree, if it is a forum policy, it should be stated somewhere, and people should abide by it. However, if this becomes an ethical issue, and different standards are applied, then it becomes a managment problem, and leaves lots of controversy. For example:
How would email communication differ from forum PM. Are you going to regulate that? What about verbal communication that was conducted on a one to one basis? Unless, you have made it a strict rule that cannot be subject to interpretation, you will certainly run into legal problems if the situation of interpretation becomes controversal enough.
Hey, moderating is already a big responsibility. What if a member says in a PM we have a deal, but does not follow such agreement? Acording to your definition, it seems like we cannot make this fact known to any other person to avoid the same thing happening to others? How would you recommend handling the situation?
I am just trying to understand what you guys are thinking. I agree, if it is a forum policy, it should be stated somewhere, and people should abide by it. However, if this becomes an ethical issue, and different standards are applied, then it becomes a managment problem, and leaves lots of controversy. For example:
How would email communication differ from forum PM. Are you going to regulate that? What about verbal communication that was conducted on a one to one basis? Unless, you have made it a strict rule that cannot be subject to interpretation, you will certainly run into legal problems if the situation of interpretation becomes controversal enough.
Hey, moderating is already a big responsibility. What if a member says in a PM we have a deal, but does not follow such agreement? Acording to your definition, it seems like we cannot make this fact known to any other person to avoid the same thing happening to others? How would you recommend handling the situation?
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Private exchanges between members automaticaly meant they did not want to take whatever was to be said to public domain. If one side discloses publically without permission, then its outing the other side. Simple as that. No unothorized quoting of emails and PMs is a forum rule as old as I remember it. The forum editor is almost ready with the modernized rules text. Sneak peek on this subject:
PROHIBITED ACTIONS SUBJECT TO DISCIPLINARY ACTION
-Posting private correspondence on the forums without express permission of the author
I.e. There was no penalty since the modern rules text isn't up yet and it would be unfair.
??? Frank, I did of course ask him why he chooses carbon fibers iso metal conductors. Why do you assume I didn't? What have you been smoking?
And no, I didn't wet my panties, although I did get a bit nervous when fire broke out on the facility next to VDH (I kid you not!).
BTW Frank it's a bit disappointing to see someone of our erstwhile intellectual capabilities to have to resort to unwarranted insinuations to make a point. But then, age takes it's toll from all of us, doesn't it?
cheers2,
jan
No, but it does show your complete ignorance of perception issues.
And it seems you are determined to stay that way. Pity.
jd
Ok, presuming it was not by PM
D) spill the beans. I am sure he completely and totally believes the reasons (ie most cable sellers etc are not scam artists). What were your reactions (both spoken and unspoken) to his answer?Perhaps a more interesting question to ask him would be 'how have your cables (and you personally) gone under proper test conditions' etc.
Another order of discussion this one.
You can make the facts known to the moderation if its a deal that concerns the forum members.
DIYA takes no responsibility of what happens in swap meet or group buys, those are hosted bulletin boards, but it can help by stop hosting certain dangerous threads in some investigated occassions.
Ok, presuming it was not by PM
Perhaps a more interesting question to ask him would be 'how have your cables (and you personally) gone under proper test conditions' etc.
I am preparing an interview with VDH to be published in time. I am not going to discuss that here. My call.
jd
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