No...audible.
I could care less if one posts measurements of the moon's effect on wires.
Are they audible
Sill waiting on RDF, Jakob2, John Risch robust tests that show this
Waiting...and waiting and waiting and waiting and......
I just actually want some measurements. I care about measured differences to start with even if they are inaudible. Differences would have meaning to me.
Audibility is for others to worry about, there are enough I can hear > 20Khz opinions out there to know that audibility is a moving target.
The creative side in my would enjoy some crazy moon effects measurements
Good misdirection AJ. A lot of audio listeners are very centered upon how loud and how clean, that loud is in their systems. For them the "you are there" feeling is centered upon these values. Others are more interested in somewhat more subtle nuances and are not much interested in playing the most dynamically stunning rim shots in the recorded universe, but would rather hear the most musical rim shots available. No question more power is better for both, but adequate power, with more information retention, might just be a worthwhile pursuit also.
Bud
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The creative side in my would enjoy some crazy moon effects measurements
Yes, but then you would have to be prepared for the inevitable "just because you can't hear the moon (effect on wires) doesn't mean that I can't with my whiz bang ears/system"....and then shortly afterward, Bybee Moon Shields and Shakti Lunar Stones, etc, etc. (which JC will defend vociferously)
Yes, but then you would have to be prepared for the inevitable "just because you can't hear the moon (effect on wires) doesn't mean that I can't with my whiz bang ears/system"....and then shortly afterward, Bybee Moon Shields and Shakti Lunar Stones, etc, etc. (which JC will defend vociferously)
Come on AJ,don't tell us you believe there is a moon out there just because you can see it
Have YOU been there?
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Hi,
So, you have a chance to talk to one of the cable gurus (a doctor in physics I believe) and you wet your panties and do NOT ask him why he chooses carbon fibers iso of metal conductors?
What a missed opportunity. You could also have asked him why the use of gold wire in the coils of some of his MCs cartridges and so much more.
Me, I just talk to his suppliers which are the same suppliers that cater for the majority of cable manufacturers.
Maybe you are still using the VdH 102 rip off from way back then since you discovered it was nothing more than a rebadged Berkenhoff & Drebes video coax?
So, we all wonder, what did you discuss with that tall man?
Cheers,
Yes that's true. But one should remember that in all but the most pathological cases, that voltage model is valid in the context of the cable impedance.
Talking to Dr. van den Hul (eat your heart out JC
jd
So, you have a chance to talk to one of the cable gurus (a doctor in physics I believe) and you wet your panties and do NOT ask him why he chooses carbon fibers iso of metal conductors?
What a missed opportunity. You could also have asked him why the use of gold wire in the coils of some of his MCs cartridges and so much more.
Me, I just talk to his suppliers which are the same suppliers that cater for the majority of cable manufacturers.
Maybe you are still using the VdH 102 rip off from way back then since you discovered it was nothing more than a rebadged Berkenhoff & Drebes video coax?
So, we all wonder, what did you discuss with that tall man?
Cheers,
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Hi,
Can you show me beyond any reasonable doubt what to look at in measurements so next time I measure something I can know in advance what is going to sound more realistic or not?
CATCH22 again.
Cheers,
Can you show me beyond any reasonable doubt what to look at in measurements so next time I measure something I can know in advance what is going to sound more realistic or not?
CATCH22 again.
Cheers,
Hi Frank,
Aside from some signal analysis, we can only measure the departure from a perfect, known signal. It's our brain that interprets whether something sounds real or not, and I suspect that has a lot to do with barely audible clues in addition to the primary sound. A lack of echo, or reverberant timing that's off probably ruins the illusion that you're "there".
It comes down to whether you are enjoying the reproduction of your music or not. The "toe tapping" factor if you will.
-Chris
Aside from some signal analysis, we can only measure the departure from a perfect, known signal. It's our brain that interprets whether something sounds real or not, and I suspect that has a lot to do with barely audible clues in addition to the primary sound. A lack of echo, or reverberant timing that's off probably ruins the illusion that you're "there".
It comes down to whether you are enjoying the reproduction of your music or not. The "toe tapping" factor if you will.
-Chris
Science & Measurements,,??? Where,,???
Edit: Do you start hearing differently when its for recreation? Find a test that recreates natural listening conditions. I don't think it can be done since the very act of knowing it is a test is the problem
Then he must not know anything and should be dismissed as a delusional, misguided sole suffering from product bias. Oh, thats right, that cannot be true because I don't see any objective proof. Seems to be a common theme here. Ridiculing people about Science and Measurements without having any of your own. 14 thousand pages worth.
"Controlled listening is needed"
"Controlled listening is needed"
"Controlled listening is needed"
More polite conversation and less Parroting is whats needed. I gave suggestions for listening so as to increase potential for hearing differences and I was greeted with the same old song and dance. People eluded to me being delusional, suffering from product bias, and making baseless claims. My claims are based on my experience which is more than I can say for many people here. My experience also tells me that people who behave like that miss a lot and speak out of ignorance. Now I am a "Foolish Audiophile". Many people here give off Napoleonic Complex vibrations.
Typical double talk. Write the politically correct side of things and then follow it up with the flip side of things and eluding to the flip side being reality. Then follow the insult with a smile. Don't think for one second anyone is fooled, accept maybe the mods.
I do not accept that my experience is wildly subjective. Buying does not equal experience. Regurgitating words written by others provides no Science, Measurements, and no experience. People with experience should be considered and respected and anyone who thinks differently is just plain old rude and has no place posting on a public forum.
And you guys waste one second critiquing my words and posting abilities??? When you bad mouth someone's gear then you are bad mouthing the person. Opinions never have and never will require insults. Right? If some people here think its fun to insult people and you get some kind of charge out of it then just come right out and say so. "Attack and idea, not the person who wrote the idea". Ring any bells?
Belittle his experience and refer to tests with an infinite number of variables and speak of no experiences of your own. You will get your point across. In my opinion the different mind sets used in listening and test listening are indeed different for me and obviously many others but you never stopped for one second to consider that may be true in spite of the fact many people share the same experience.
Post "your" measurements and data. If you have none then your experiences would be great. Anything short of that isn't very constructive is it?
Edit: Do you start hearing differently when its for recreation? Find a test that recreates natural listening conditions. I don't think it can be done since the very act of knowing it is a test is the problem
Then he must not know anything and should be dismissed as a delusional, misguided sole suffering from product bias. Oh, thats right, that cannot be true because I don't see any objective proof. Seems to be a common theme here. Ridiculing people about Science and Measurements without having any of your own. 14 thousand pages worth.
That is awesome. What is more incredible is that so do the rest of us.
But that has ZERO to do with posting in a thread like this and why be in any audio science discussion if its just about enjoyment with you. Anyone posting should be wanting to learn something about the science behind audio.
Its pointless to post otherwise!! Controlled listening is needed to make properly comparisons and conclusions. Without it people are just foolish audiophiles.
There are many forums for people to post expressing their subjective joy without knowing how to measure. This isnt one of them
"Controlled listening is needed"
"Controlled listening is needed"
"Controlled listening is needed"
More polite conversation and less Parroting is whats needed. I gave suggestions for listening so as to increase potential for hearing differences and I was greeted with the same old song and dance. People eluded to me being delusional, suffering from product bias, and making baseless claims. My claims are based on my experience which is more than I can say for many people here. My experience also tells me that people who behave like that miss a lot and speak out of ignorance. Now I am a "Foolish Audiophile". Many people here give off Napoleonic Complex vibrations.
Really
Well, members are free to post , within forum rules ofcourse
But noise and noise and continious noise, and nothing much else than posting noise, that doesnt do any good
Typical double talk. Write the politically correct side of things and then follow it up with the flip side of things and eluding to the flip side being reality. Then follow the insult with a smile. Don't think for one second anyone is fooled, accept maybe the mods.
I do not accept that my experience is wildly subjective. Buying does not equal experience. Regurgitating words written by others provides no Science, Measurements, and no experience. People with experience should be considered and respected and anyone who thinks differently is just plain old rude and has no place posting on a public forum.
Well, if you think your $1350 constant clipping distortion, compressor, EQ/amplifier sounds "better" than the "cheap", inaudible Pioneer.....what exactly would you call that???
Blatantly obvious audible effects are completely missed (remember our little Klippel Test?
Hmmmm...
And you guys waste one second critiquing my words and posting abilities??? When you bad mouth someone's gear then you are bad mouthing the person. Opinions never have and never will require insults. Right? If some people here think its fun to insult people and you get some kind of charge out of it then just come right out and say so. "Attack and idea, not the person who wrote the idea". Ring any bells?
Obviously you could never be wrong and obviously ABX tests are flawed because you didnt like the outcome.
Belittle his experience and refer to tests with an infinite number of variables and speak of no experiences of your own. You will get your point across. In my opinion the different mind sets used in listening and test listening are indeed different for me and obviously many others but you never stopped for one second to consider that may be true in spite of the fact many people share the same experience.
Post "your" measurements and data. If you have none then your experiences would be great. Anything short of that isn't very constructive is it?
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Hi,
Can you show me beyond any reasonable doubt what to look at in measurements so next time I measure something I can know in advance what is going to sound more realistic or not?
CATCH22 again.
Cheers,
Sure, just do a gated measurement of your speaker on and off axis out to about 45 degrees for each cable. Export the impulse is just fine IMO.
No Catch22 for me, unless you can not even do that?
Hi Chris,
What can one say to that, he?
Listening to the latest CP12 as we speak. Get it?
Cheers,
What can one say to that, he?
Listening to the latest CP12 as we speak. Get it?
Cheers,
He doesn't even need to do that. Remove and replace the cables (this can improve the contact). Take an impulse measurement on axis. Swap cables. Take another one, without moving the mike or the speaker. Swap back. Remeasure. Swap. Remeasure.
That set of 4 measurements will indicate if the cables are making any changes that could translate to changes in realism, what with all that interaction with speaker, crossover, and amplifier. The measurements are alternated and repeated to give a rough indication of their repeatability.
We are talking about wires, right?
Dan, I don't mean to be 'cute' or anything, but what do you think about the new coke-old coke controversy? Do you completely believe the executives who would 'lose face' if they admitted that they 'screwed up'? They would prefer to blame it on the 'misguided' masses who avoided new coke in droves, to the point where they pulled it off the market in the USA. It is my opinion that there was a difference between new coke and old coke, and I could taste it. I happen to prefer old coke, and still drink coke Classic if I want a soft drink. I have liked the taste of coke since the 1940's when I was first introduced to it. Pepsi was OK, in a pinch, but too sweet for my personal taste.
I was told over the years, not just this week, that someone invested a considerable sum of money to get old coke returned to the USA for sale. However, this person, when given a double blind test between new coke and old coke, got null results. What does that say about double blind tests? To me, it says there is something wrong with them. That is what I was trying to say, then and now. Would you say that I am lying about what I just said?
I was told over the years, not just this week, that someone invested a considerable sum of money to get old coke returned to the USA for sale. However, this person, when given a double blind test between new coke and old coke, got null results. What does that say about double blind tests? To me, it says there is something wrong with them. That is what I was trying to say, then and now. Would you say that I am lying about what I just said?
blah, blah, blah.....
Post "your" measurements and data. If you have none then your experiences would be great. Anything short of that isn't very constructive is it?
As for my measurements and data? What would you like, I build speakers for fun and nothing else. I do not bother with cables becaus all data points to some audiophiles chasing ghosts and being dupped into paying silly amounts of money and time for no change.
Im not the one posting Cable A is better or Cable B is better....I simply ask for data to back up those claims. Until that time all tests so far done in the many years of audio have simply proven the above "Silly amounts of money and time for no change".
I will also keep posting CONTROLLED LISTENING TEST until it actually sinks in the brains of those too full of subjectivity to have a rational thought
Audible error? That were your ears stop working for a moment? Testing and Enjoying, is there more than one way to listen? Do you start hearing differently when its for recreation?
Indeed there's a difference between listening for something and listening to something.
Then he must not know anything and should be dismissed as a delusional, misguided sole suffering from product bias. Oh, thats right, that cannot be true because I don't see any objective proof. Seems to be a common theme here. Ridiculing people about Science and Measurements without having any of your own. 14 thousand pages worth.
"We" don't claim anything. It's the believers that claim "cable sound". When asking them to demonstrate "cable sound" in an objective way, all of a sudden they become kind of deaf.
Hi,
Not really.
We are talking about how to measure realism and how to distinguish it just by looking at measurements.
Not quite the same thing.
Cheers,
Speakers create sound NOTHING else. The do not create "realism" so your post is actually meaningless other then some kind of audiophile spin to once againt deflect the truth.
Your brain is doing all that imagination stuff.
We can measure EVERYTHING the speaker produces, hence we can measure what any cable does to the signal.
We can not measure your brain, nor do we want too
Let's just say that this is a seriously doubtful third-hand (at best) story. The sweetness levels between old and New Coke were considerable, and were ALWAYS perceived in the tests that Coke ran. There is no mention WHATEVER in the two books I have on that fiasco. I suspect that, if there's ANY grain of truth to this, you've made the same reporting error again, that you (or the link in the story-passing chain before you) have mistaken "preference" for "difference."
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