Member
Joined 2004
This is obviously true despite the low bandwith. As it´s possible to maintain a conversation in a crowded pub despite the "noise-to-signal" ratio. Can also be used as reasoning to justify human ears don´t get fooled so easily.
No, because was I paying attention to them, not wires.
Were you not so far away, I would demonstrate, not just tell you in type.
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I do believe cable direction may make a small difference in perceived space, focus and timbre of acoustical instruments but I wouldn't say it too loud here.
Good one, she must be a non believer.
Member
Joined 2004
Eheh those aren´t exactly bad news, so thank you. I think I always knew it, but still I figure I´m not so welcome to the club. Since I´m an amateur musician first and an audiophile second, and having done studio time as recording technician, I take the subjective listening very seriously. So much that my nitpicking of LCR down to the pF and mH to justify cable differences could be regarded as boring/pseudo-mystical by other rationalists...
Arrgghh, too early in the morning TG..I wake up to this??
Yes, the mask sometimes slips eh ??? Not sure yet how I will respond, don't want to inflame the situation yet also would like to cover MOST of the points!
(Usually you end your posts with 'Tom' as well as tubeguy etc..not this time. My feelings are hurt.)
As far as I can tell, most of this section of your post is a huge ramble about the folly and dangers of making assumptions about someone else, which you are illustrating.
In actual fact, I do NOT like upsetting or causing a ruckus. So yeah, I did wonder if I should state my true thoughts on the matter, as what I did not want to cause was, well ha, exactly this reaction from you.
Funny that, and you seem to have a poor opinion about my ability to predict and understand the other person on the net. Hmm.
Whatever. I hardly jumped to the worst (he's out molesting little children again) now did I. How melodramatic of you, assume the worst.
All I wondered was whether or not you were still going to go ahead with the test. You assured us you were, that's great, I acknowledged you and apologised.
Boy, you do fly off the handle easily don't you. All I said, and all I meant, was that you are happy to get across on a forum your points without feeling the need to use euphemisms etc etc.
A bit like you are doing now.
Better hone my people prediction skills more...in any case you have interpreted it all based on rudeness or civility etc. I made no mention of it, in fact that did not even enter my head. As I said, you are happy to get your point across.
As above. Now you are off as if I have laid to some 'rudeness gauntlet', where (for example) did I suggest we start being rude to each other from now on? Hmm, who is jumping to conclusions now.
Interesting the little warning/threat at the end of your post there.
See what I mean?? You do seem very willing indeed to drop the nice guy mask when it suits, and equally to put it back on when it suits.
Thanks for the science lesson of fundamentals ETC. Strangely enough, it WAS exactly where I was heading when I mentioned single driver and it's relation to accuracy.
Well spotted.
Tsk tsk Tom. Here you go again. Now, if I had actually written that you spent ten thousand on your interconnect, then yeah it would have been quite explicit.
But here you are, (actually shirking the point tbh) trying to misdirect and evade the point. I simply googled your interconnect (stealth indera or something) and it had a price of ten thousand (US I presume).
Foggiest idea?? well for example I do not think you paid ten dollars for it Tom, so yes I must have some sort of foggy idea. It is this basic dishonesty that often appears in your posts Tom that intrigues me. You did NOT pay ten dollars for it did you Tom. Or anything even resembling something that low. So stop trying to squirm, it is obvious for all to see and is frankly embaressing.
Yep. Take that as given Tom. Hmm, I did predict that in my post did I not?? I said something like 'what audiophile even thinks about the room' or something.
Boy, you are so correct Tom, my people prediction skills etc have turned out to be atrocious.
For sure Tom.
Actually, you are totally correct, I should not have brushed it off so readily just then.
As a matter of fact, the component that has the most shortcomings are the speakers (and the rooms influence on it).
THAT is basically behind my audio philosophy and why (for cables as an example) it is a case of who frickin cares. There are much bigger things to fix first, and once they're done why bother with cables.
You however are an audiophile. Highly coloured speakers, no room treatment and an emphasis on things that don't matter diddly in importance.
That is why, just for larfs, when the boys are there for measurements it would be a hoot for them to measure your speakers (with the five step treatment process, which I am sure removes the +/- five db response (or whatever it is)) Then take a sweep at your listening position.
Ohh, that's right. That just shows that I don't listen with my ears, only go on specs doesn't it tOM.
yOU GOTTA GET A HANDLE ON THIS BASIC MISREPRESENTATIONS YOU USE TO BOLSTER YOUR ARGUMENTS. iT IS THAT DISHONESTY PORTION i SPOKE OF EARLIER, THE MASK DOES NOT COMPLETELY HIDE IT. (sorry about tha caps lock there)
You, on the other hand, are you saying that for you measurements do not tell us anything?? Because they can and do, and we will learn a lot about your speakers abil8ty to accurately reproduce these fundamentals and harmonics you type at great length about.
It is a single driver Tom, one that no matter the treatment it has received will still obey some of the laws of physics. So I can confidently predict it's FR will be quite poor, no matter how much you personally love it.
Wow, a salesman at your door mistook your highly realistic speakers for a human playing?? please.
Forget the first rule of salesmanship (find and emphasise something that will increase the affinity), but if it had been Alfred Brendel who walked up to your door and said that.....
([note I am only 'laughing' at how pathetic as an argument that was, not anything else])
Oh FFS stop being such a drama queen Tom!
Pretty close Tom, you make some good predictions too at times!! Yep, I have heard single driver systems. Have I heard every possible combination of them? Of course not.
So why then do I feel I can predict whether or not I would like yours (or any other) single driver system?
For starters, I like (need) decent solid substantial bass, not some weak and watery anaemic ersatz substitute. It also has to go reasonably low. (extreme lows I do not care for or need)
I cannot abide any sort of bass anomaly, and *most* (read 90% plus) untreated rooms will give you that, even with a single driver.
I know the FR will be very poor, and the boys can find that out for us when they measure.
So even bearing in mind that we can always be surprised, I do believe I have a handle on how your (and any other arbitrary) single driver system will sound, or perhaps more accurately, what it will not sound like. Take your pick.
It is not, contrary to your ravings and diatribes, something I have made up or that is not based on physics.
So poor old Tom get's hurt and offended because I don't like single drivers (*and my only point regarding that was related to realism remember) and then the masks falls off and away Tom goes. I am deluded, a clown, a fool and on and on.
And whinges about me making those comments towards him (and if you go back and read, you'll find I did no such thing).
I think we can work thru this Tom, you just need to settle down and stop reading things into it that I never said.
For the record, what I did say and stand by is that a single driver cannot hope to be realistically accurate, no matter how much you love it.
I have a build thread here Tom if you are serious about what speakers I listen to. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/127653-frankenstein-becomes-cindarella-i-hope.html
I won't be offended if you don't take a look, I realise it was probably more a rhetorical device than a genuine question of curiosity.
Quick general question. I'll ask Panikos, as he is currently responding. Recently there has been talk about LCR etc.
Have you ever tested cables with different LCR and found that they DO reflect the LCR value? What I mean, you (for example) are ascribing changes to something other than LCR.
That may be because *we* say there is nothing other than lcr, but what I am asking (assuming you can hear different cables) is 'how do you know lcr difference are not enough to cause what you are hearing'.
Sounds like some sort of assumption that may or may not be true, if you can understand my question.
Put it this way, I think honestly we can all agree that these cable differences are subtle or minor (no matter how rewarding any one person may find them), so to me that suggests that lcr difference may be enough??
Yes, the mask sometimes slips eh ??? Not sure yet how I will respond, don't want to inflame the situation yet also would like to cover MOST of the points!
(Usually you end your posts with 'Tom' as well as tubeguy etc..not this time. My feelings are hurt.)
As far as I can tell, most of this section of your post is a huge ramble about the folly and dangers of making assumptions about someone else, which you are illustrating.
In actual fact, I do NOT like upsetting or causing a ruckus. So yeah, I did wonder if I should state my true thoughts on the matter, as what I did not want to cause was, well ha, exactly this reaction from you.
Funny that, and you seem to have a poor opinion about my ability to predict and understand the other person on the net. Hmm.
Whatever. I hardly jumped to the worst (he's out molesting little children again) now did I. How melodramatic of you, assume the worst.
All I wondered was whether or not you were still going to go ahead with the test. You assured us you were, that's great, I acknowledged you and apologised.
Boy, you do fly off the handle easily don't you. All I said, and all I meant, was that you are happy to get across on a forum your points without feeling the need to use euphemisms etc etc.
A bit like you are doing now.
Better hone my people prediction skills more...in any case you have interpreted it all based on rudeness or civility etc. I made no mention of it, in fact that did not even enter my head. As I said, you are happy to get your point across.
As above. Now you are off as if I have laid to some 'rudeness gauntlet', where (for example) did I suggest we start being rude to each other from now on? Hmm, who is jumping to conclusions now.
Interesting the little warning/threat at the end of your post there.
See what I mean?? You do seem very willing indeed to drop the nice guy mask when it suits, and equally to put it back on when it suits.
Thanks for the science lesson of fundamentals ETC. Strangely enough, it WAS exactly where I was heading when I mentioned single driver and it's relation to accuracy.
Well spotted.
Tsk tsk Tom. Here you go again. Now, if I had actually written that you spent ten thousand on your interconnect, then yeah it would have been quite explicit.
But here you are, (actually shirking the point tbh) trying to misdirect and evade the point. I simply googled your interconnect (stealth indera or something) and it had a price of ten thousand (US I presume).
Foggiest idea?? well for example I do not think you paid ten dollars for it Tom, so yes I must have some sort of foggy idea. It is this basic dishonesty that often appears in your posts Tom that intrigues me. You did NOT pay ten dollars for it did you Tom. Or anything even resembling something that low. So stop trying to squirm, it is obvious for all to see and is frankly embaressing.
Yep. Take that as given Tom. Hmm, I did predict that in my post did I not?? I said something like 'what audiophile even thinks about the room' or something.
Boy, you are so correct Tom, my people prediction skills etc have turned out to be atrocious.
For sure Tom.
Actually, you are totally correct, I should not have brushed it off so readily just then.
As a matter of fact, the component that has the most shortcomings are the speakers (and the rooms influence on it).
THAT is basically behind my audio philosophy and why (for cables as an example) it is a case of who frickin cares. There are much bigger things to fix first, and once they're done why bother with cables.
You however are an audiophile. Highly coloured speakers, no room treatment and an emphasis on things that don't matter diddly in importance.
That is why, just for larfs, when the boys are there for measurements it would be a hoot for them to measure your speakers (with the five step treatment process, which I am sure removes the +/- five db response
(or whatever it is)) Then take a sweep at your listening position.Ohh, that's right. That just shows that I don't listen with my ears, only go on specs doesn't it tOM.
yOU GOTTA GET A HANDLE ON THIS BASIC MISREPRESENTATIONS YOU USE TO BOLSTER YOUR ARGUMENTS. iT IS THAT DISHONESTY PORTION i SPOKE OF EARLIER, THE MASK DOES NOT COMPLETELY HIDE IT. (sorry about tha caps lock there)
You, on the other hand, are you saying that for you measurements do not tell us anything?? Because they can and do, and we will learn a lot about your speakers abil8ty to accurately reproduce these fundamentals and harmonics you type at great length about.
It is a single driver Tom, one that no matter the treatment it has received will still obey some of the laws of physics. So I can confidently predict it's FR will be quite poor, no matter how much you personally love it.
Wow, a salesman at your door mistook your highly realistic speakers for a human playing?? please.
Forget the first rule of salesmanship (find and emphasise something that will increase the affinity), but if it had been Alfred Brendel who walked up to your door and said that.....
([note I am only 'laughing' at how pathetic as an argument that was, not anything else])
Oh FFS stop being such a drama queen Tom!
Pretty close Tom, you make some good predictions too at times!! Yep, I have heard single driver systems. Have I heard every possible combination of them? Of course not.
So why then do I feel I can predict whether or not I would like yours (or any other) single driver system?
For starters, I like (need) decent solid substantial bass, not some weak and watery anaemic ersatz substitute. It also has to go reasonably low. (extreme lows I do not care for or need)
I cannot abide any sort of bass anomaly, and *most* (read 90% plus) untreated rooms will give you that, even with a single driver.
I know the FR will be very poor, and the boys can find that out for us when they measure.
So even bearing in mind that we can always be surprised, I do believe I have a handle on how your (and any other arbitrary) single driver system will sound, or perhaps more accurately, what it will not sound like. Take your pick.
It is not, contrary to your ravings and diatribes, something I have made up or that is not based on physics.
So poor old Tom get's hurt and offended because I don't like single drivers (*and my only point regarding that was related to realism remember) and then the masks falls off and away Tom goes. I am deluded, a clown, a fool and on and on.
And whinges about me making those comments towards him (and if you go back and read, you'll find I did no such thing).
I think we can work thru this Tom, you just need to settle down and stop reading things into it that I never said.
For the record, what I did say and stand by is that a single driver cannot hope to be realistically accurate, no matter how much you love it.
I have a build thread here Tom if you are serious about what speakers I listen to. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/127653-frankenstein-becomes-cindarella-i-hope.html
I won't be offended if you don't take a look, I realise it was probably more a rhetorical device than a genuine question of curiosity.
Quick general question. I'll ask Panikos, as he is currently responding. Recently there has been talk about LCR etc.
Have you ever tested cables with different LCR and found that they DO reflect the LCR value? What I mean, you (for example) are ascribing changes to something other than LCR.
That may be because *we* say there is nothing other than lcr, but what I am asking (assuming you can hear different cables) is 'how do you know lcr difference are not enough to cause what you are hearing'.
Sounds like some sort of assumption that may or may not be true, if you can understand my question.
Put it this way, I think honestly we can all agree that these cable differences are subtle or minor (no matter how rewarding any one person may find them), so to me that suggests that lcr difference may be enough??
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[Did a little editing eh?
]No, not if sound wave issues are accounted for. Now imagined sonics and "bling" looks? Unfortunately, that won't help.
Sorry, I missed that
. Was it posted before or after the amp clipping article?CoolSo would I
. Anything specific?You can say that out loud here Andre
.So in hindsight, what do you think about the sound of Mogami?
cheers,
AJ
By the way, both of you guys have now officially horrified my wife. When I showed her the pic of Tom's speakers (to contrast with Morgan's FE166E build), she immediately exclaimed, "No ****ing way!!!" When she saw Terry's, she actually shrieked a bit.
My speakers are looking better and better to her.
My speakers are looking better and better to her.
understand SY, that was behind my point that I was not sure on the best way to respond.
Unfortunately, as TGs post was so long and detailed I had to try and cover all the bases.
As an aside, tho I know that can be very tedious, the other side is that often (I feel) half the problems that arise in a thread like this IS because things are sometimes not specifically addressed.
So it can be a tricky tightrope to walk. (hahaha, you guys would not really know this nut my posts lately ARE much shorter than they used to be!! So count yourselves bloody lucky ok??!!)
EDIT SY, can I interpret your wifes reaction to my beautiful speakers (you DID show her the finished items rather than the old boxes yeah?) along the lines of (from the kitchen) 'honey, that latest cable swap is so good I want you to ravish me now!'??
Ie, the new speakers are the sexiest thing she has ever seen?
Unfortunately, as TGs post was so long and detailed I had to try and cover all the bases.
As an aside, tho I know that can be very tedious, the other side is that often (I feel) half the problems that arise in a thread like this IS because things are sometimes not specifically addressed.
So it can be a tricky tightrope to walk. (hahaha, you guys would not really know this nut my posts lately ARE much shorter than they used to be!! So count yourselves bloody lucky ok??!!)
EDIT SY, can I interpret your wifes reaction to my beautiful speakers (you DID show her the finished items rather than the old boxes yeah?) along the lines of (from the kitchen) 'honey, that latest cable swap is so good I want you to ravish me now!'??
Ie, the new speakers are the sexiest thing she has ever seen?
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What did she think of Terry?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Criminy. No wonder he can't "hear" cables
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No, you didn't.
Uhhh, not exactly...
She saw the old ones- there's method in my madness. It's like having only ugly friends- it makes you look good.
[Did a little editing eh?
Cool
cheers,
AJ
Sorry about editting.
Yes.I could demonstrate the big system first,that would be closer to your standards.But,if you are bringing the little monkey too,make sure to secure its panties well
After the earthquake,I would demonstrate the smaller system,and try to explain you why I prefer it to the big one
After that,some barbecue and ouzo.
After ouzo,we can both have a TBT(totally blind test)
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Uhhh, not exactly...
Hmmph. I can see it was not worth the bother making beautiful speakers for you heathens.
Anyways, the task of making an 18 inch driver 'look good' I felt I did pretty well.
TG, SY feels I did not make my points with you.
Will try briefly and succinctly. I did not want to offend you, so I am sorry for that.
I do however stick by my points (which I thought I made without disparagement or ridicule) that a single driver (whatever it's attributes) cannot hope to approach a realistic facsimile of live music. No part of it's performance (extension at either end, tonal balance) is evidence against that.
Oh, BTW, you asked about my speakers (as I said, I doubt you will look)..mine are PRO drivers!! That will no doubt horrify you heh heh, but the point I am making is that mine are 97 db efficient...and I run about 800 watts a side! (don't read too much into that admittedly...I use an AWFUL lot of EQ boost, which eats up a lot of that power)
The one thing we can agree on perhaps, ....we have very different philosophies on audio yeah??
I DID worry about posting it, and I can see I was right to worry. Hopefully you will calm down and we can get back to normal. I did not mean to offend.
AJ, I was annoyed when that person put that shot of me on the web....
Now that's cruel Stuart. The new ones do look very good and are exceptional sounding.Yes.
The old ones had appeal because they were painted by his lovely daughters, but more than that, I watched at least one member of the Audiophile Kool Aid Society try to reconcile how great they actually sound, with their *cough* challenged aesthetics and modest componentry.
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