Hi Terry
Pretty much agree with all of that.
Anyway, I hope TG's well and comes back soon.
And now - time to lighten up!
Here's a cartoon that's almost relevant to snake-oil, self-delusion etc:
YouTube - Dilbert Cartoon 02X16 - The Fact - part 1/3
YouTube - Dilbert Cartoon 02X16 - The Fact - part 2/3
YouTube - Dilbert Cartoon 02X16 - The Fact - part 3/3
Cheers - Godfrey
Pretty much agree with all of that.
Anyway, I hope TG's well and comes back soon.
And now - time to lighten up!
Here's a cartoon that's almost relevant to snake-oil, self-delusion etc:
YouTube - Dilbert Cartoon 02X16 - The Fact - part 1/3
YouTube - Dilbert Cartoon 02X16 - The Fact - part 2/3
YouTube - Dilbert Cartoon 02X16 - The Fact - part 3/3
Cheers - Godfrey
Guys, I can't really moderate this thread since I'm participating, but as a personal request from an interested member who likes and respects both of you, can you cut out the sniping and stick to the topic at hand?
The anxiety, if any, would come from knowing or believing administrators of the tests will use your results as further supposed proof that there's really no sonic differences in wires and those who claim sonic differences exist are fools who probably also believe Santa Claus brings their Christmas presents.
maybe THIS is at the bottom of TG's seemingly sudden reluctance?
Of course I could be wrong. But did not TG often say he had a long standing invite at his premises to do a test so he could prove this audibilty to all and sundry>
His invite was accepted, moves were made to start proceedings and take his 'challenge'...and that's when the first tumbleweeds start rolling thru the plot.
Tell me I'm wrong TG..please?
maybe THIS is at the bottom of TG's seemingly sudden reluctance?
Of course I could be wrong. But did not TG often say he had a long standing invite at his premises to do a test so he could prove this audibilty to all and sundry>
His invite was accepted, moves were made to start proceedings and take his 'challenge'...and that's when the first tumbleweeds start rolling thru the plot.
Tell me I'm wrong TG..please?
Terry, I wouldn't jump to conclusions.
In any event, if I'm wrong and TG decides he doesn't want to do it, we had a second volunteer. I suspect this is not the case and I'll drop TG an email to confirm. Until then, I think that you and others ought to pull in your horns, OK?
In any event, if I'm wrong and TG decides he doesn't want to do it, we had a second volunteer. I suspect this is not the case and I'll drop TG an email to confirm. Until then, I think that you and others ought to pull in your horns, OK?
no problemo.
let us know, and we all hope he is healthy and willing to go ahead.
I did notice a recent post of his where he mentioned health issues, hope he is ok.
(been reading some of the stuff at propeller head. seems the same conversations just go round and round!)
let us know, and we all hope he is healthy and willing to go ahead.
I did notice a recent post of his where he mentioned health issues, hope he is ok.
(been reading some of the stuff at propeller head. seems the same conversations just go round and round!)
My posts stay on the topic at hand, which at the moment is the validity of the claim the best way to measure the effects of cables is with a microphone, in a room, pointed at speakers. Unless one accepts that the effect of a change can somehow jump the speaker terminals it must appear as a voltage there, where it's much easier to measure to orders of magnitude greater resolution. The latter is obvious by definition because anything on the output of a mic pre also measures voltage, but a voltage distorted by a speaker, room, mic and mic pre.
Unless one is unaware of this, the only other reason I can think to demand the latter over the former is to intentionally reduce the sensitivity of the measurements towards a null.
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Actually, the mike-in-a-room strikes me as the least reliable way- the repeatability of that sort of measurement is far worse than an electrical measurement. Now electrically at the speaker terminals, there you might have an argument.
I believe the second volunteer was me. As I said before, I have believed I heard differences, but I know I have been fooled by expectations. Does that make me an acceptable test subject? I don't know. In my case, someone MUST be present to change out the wires, because I can't do it myself.
As for TG, give him the benefit of doubt. I can understand health issues getting in the way. I went for over a year without turning my computer on because of a health issue.
Mic measurement is complete waste of time for that kind of test. Resolution is too small and influence of the room acoustics too big.
IMO listening test will suffice.
BTW is there any date fixed for the test?
IMO listening test will suffice.
BTW is there any date fixed for the test?
This is correct, for many reasons. People keep mentioning phase problems, repeatability of mic placement to the necessary level would be virtually impossible. Electrical and mic measurements still are an interesting adjunct, the look on people's faces when you show them the "fidelity" of their favorite listening position with a good dummy head is worth it.
Frankly I don't get the aversion to measurements. If a choice of cable makes large-ish V/I differences at the speaker, it has to matter.
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There is no aversion to measurements on my part, I've posted both them and equivalent sims in this thread. The aversion was to discussing their meaning. They fell on deaf ears, so to speak.
for me, invest $$$$$$ for cables, i rather use the $$$$ for better equipments.
Because, i failed in blind test once😕
Because, i failed in blind test once😕
I was thinking more of the conversations that invariably contain ...I'm not an EE and I could care less...
But I'm *not* an EE! 😀
@Terry and AJ- TG emailed me to confirm that he is still definitely "in."
SY,
Thanks for not jumping on the "thetubeguy isn't posting lately so he must be backing out of taking a controlled DBT" bandwagon! I truly appreciate your trust in my integrity. I had believed the numerous times I've written here about personal integrity being all we have to back up & give weight to our posts would have caused others here to realise I wouldn't just ignore what I've previously posted here! Thus "if" I had decided to rescind my standing offer to submit to a DBT in my home, I would have had the integrity posted that info here!
As I told you SY in a private email earlier today yes of course I still want to do this! As I've stated numerous times now I want to know what the truth about wires is. I'm confronted with two issues at present that need resolving:
- I'm still trying to get a handle on how this new CDP player sounds. Believe it or not it's actually just an upgrade from an earlier solid state Bluenote Stibbert I purchased in 2003 to the new tubed Stibbert under their new Goldenote name. However it sounds completely different than the solid state Stibbert did! It sounds so different in fact, that for the first time in years I'm still unable to decide if this "upgrade" is:
- a downward move (sounds different but, also less realistic)
- a lateral move (sounds different but, no more & no less realistic)
- an upward move (sounds different but, also sounds more realistic)
- I haven't been able to get anyone over to switch the ICs blind for me with the new equipment. After I read some of the posts on here it caused me some concern over what might happen if the same ICs being were installed 2, 3 or possibly 4 times in a row when I'm listening for differences. So I need to see if that occured would it confuse me ---{I'll be honest and say I don't think it would because of how I listen for differences}--- but, who knows? So with the new CDP and having never experienced listening to the same ICs numerous times in row when comparing ICs, I'd like to take a couple of practice tests with that occuring. I want to remove all possible excuses in case I fail. Afterall I'm assuming that is a possibility, no?
I'm hoping to have some friends from Central Florida Audio Society & Space Coast Audio Society over sometime in the next couple of weeks so at the very least I'll be able to eliminate issue #2 when they come over. I should also let you know that with issue #1 it's my opinion that I made an upward move. However I'm basing that opinion strictly on the fact that since I've received the new tubed Stibbert I've been listening to music for 8 to 12 hours on an almost daily basis. I think if something was worse or wrong listening fatigue would set in well before 8 to 12 hours have passed but, I could be mistaken.
In any event SY you have my contact info and as far as I'm concerened everything is still proceeding as planned!
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
SETriodes Group
Central Florida Audio Society
Don't let them upset you, unfortunately to some armwaving and looking to stir **** are far more interesting than a constructive discussion. 🙁
It could make the test more difficult, especially if the differences are small, you sort of lose your reference. I would prefer an A / B identify test where A and B can be randomly chosen between tests. Then it doesn't matter if it stays the same for many consecutive tests.
interesting...
This is a very interesting line of concern... the idea of loosing your reference due to small perceived differences... sort of sounds like a "pre-excuse" that can be pulled out later, if necessary. The test is what it is, no "making it more difficult" involved. After all, the whole point is being able to "decode" what's heard no matter what the sequencing might be! Hopefully, the actually testing regimen will account for this...
This is a very interesting line of concern... the idea of loosing your reference due to small perceived differences... sort of sounds like a "pre-excuse" that can be pulled out later, if necessary. The test is what it is, no "making it more difficult" involved. After all, the whole point is being able to "decode" what's heard no matter what the sequencing might be! Hopefully, the actually testing regimen will account for this...
No, not intended as "excuses" it is just something that made a cable direction test I've done a while ago harder than necessary but I guess it wouldn't make sense if you've never tried it.
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