It seems very likely to me that the effect of a cable depends hugely on what's at either end of it.
If Paulinator has spent his money wisely, he will have well-mannered speakers and an amp that doesn't mind what it's driving. It's perfectly possible, then, that Radio Shack cables introduce no audible defects in this system; why should he spend money on anything more expensive?
Equally, there are many perfectly plausible ways in which cables may cause or expose amplifier and loudspeaker 'faults'. My No. 1 vote is amplifier instability - you can bet that for every 'AM transmitter' case there are a dozen 'slightly fuzzy sound' cases which aren't immediately recognised as faults. (These "my amp ran cooler" effects ought to ring warning bells).
It seems some problems are cured by lowering the resistance, inductance or capacitance, and others by increasing it. This makes me rather suspicious of any claim that just buying a more expensive interconnect will improve the sound - much better to experiment with something cheap but different.
Cheers
IH
PS: As for "surveys" - if people who post negative results have to endure flames like "you have sub standard hearing", can you think of another reason why these surveys end up with lots of positives?
If Paulinator has spent his money wisely, he will have well-mannered speakers and an amp that doesn't mind what it's driving. It's perfectly possible, then, that Radio Shack cables introduce no audible defects in this system; why should he spend money on anything more expensive?
Equally, there are many perfectly plausible ways in which cables may cause or expose amplifier and loudspeaker 'faults'. My No. 1 vote is amplifier instability - you can bet that for every 'AM transmitter' case there are a dozen 'slightly fuzzy sound' cases which aren't immediately recognised as faults. (These "my amp ran cooler" effects ought to ring warning bells).
It seems some problems are cured by lowering the resistance, inductance or capacitance, and others by increasing it. This makes me rather suspicious of any claim that just buying a more expensive interconnect will improve the sound - much better to experiment with something cheap but different.
Cheers
IH
PS: As for "surveys" - if people who post negative results have to endure flames like "you have sub standard hearing", can you think of another reason why these surveys end up with lots of positives?
When I first read this post, I didn't know what to make of it. On one hand, The Paulinator is right, on the other wrong. It all really depends.
Take a high-end speaker cable and use it on a mini-compo, no difference. Install the wrong cable in a $100,000/- system and it can sound worse than a $10,000/- system. As a system gets better, the effects of cabling becomes more pronounce, interconnects as well as speakers side. This is due to the resolving power of the system.
As a professional in this industry, this is something I look into very carefully. My perspective is not strictly in the sense of cabling, but rather conductors. It doesn't matter whether it is carrying small signal or power level, as long as it is part of the signal chain, it affects the sound. Whether the system is capable of producing those sonic differences is a different matter altogether.
This is an experiment that I conducted in my early years in audio that convinced me about the sonic signatures of conductors. In order to save cost, I decided to use the heatsinks as supply line conductors (this is still the practice of some very notable PA brands). As long as the 2 heatsinks are isolated from each other and the chassis, the collectors can be mounted directly onto the heatsinks, without micas. Better thermal transfer, superior current carrying capabilities when compared to pc tracks and lower cost.
Yes, you get all that and more. It sounded terrible....grain, harsh, glare, sandpaper....the entire lot. I thought there was something wrong in the system. I was aghast when I finally traced it to the heatsinks.
Another experiment in cost savings. In high powered amps, I use solid copper, instead of pcb, for the high current lines. I happened to chance upon some nice looking rods use for brazing. Wow, much cheaper than solid copper. Wired an amp up with these brazing rods..........impossible to listen to.
So what do I use nowadays, solid copper rods, sometimes bus bars. For high end amps, pure silver bus bars.
Regards
Take a high-end speaker cable and use it on a mini-compo, no difference. Install the wrong cable in a $100,000/- system and it can sound worse than a $10,000/- system. As a system gets better, the effects of cabling becomes more pronounce, interconnects as well as speakers side. This is due to the resolving power of the system.
As a professional in this industry, this is something I look into very carefully. My perspective is not strictly in the sense of cabling, but rather conductors. It doesn't matter whether it is carrying small signal or power level, as long as it is part of the signal chain, it affects the sound. Whether the system is capable of producing those sonic differences is a different matter altogether.
This is an experiment that I conducted in my early years in audio that convinced me about the sonic signatures of conductors. In order to save cost, I decided to use the heatsinks as supply line conductors (this is still the practice of some very notable PA brands). As long as the 2 heatsinks are isolated from each other and the chassis, the collectors can be mounted directly onto the heatsinks, without micas. Better thermal transfer, superior current carrying capabilities when compared to pc tracks and lower cost.
Yes, you get all that and more. It sounded terrible....grain, harsh, glare, sandpaper....the entire lot. I thought there was something wrong in the system. I was aghast when I finally traced it to the heatsinks.
Another experiment in cost savings. In high powered amps, I use solid copper, instead of pcb, for the high current lines. I happened to chance upon some nice looking rods use for brazing. Wow, much cheaper than solid copper. Wired an amp up with these brazing rods..........impossible to listen to.
So what do I use nowadays, solid copper rods, sometimes bus bars. For high end amps, pure silver bus bars.
Regards
mpc;
These things are very much dependent upon the equipment used and how much noise and hash there is in the environment.
Isolating the heat sinks from the grounded chassis and then connecting the collectors directly to then, was the same as connecting an antenna to your signal path.
Copper colored welding rod doesn't have much copper in it, it isn’t even all metal. The same problem occurs with some copper tubing and water pipe although your make good conductor from these if you select the correct type.
I also like copper bus bars, particularly for the return in a dual (+-)
power supply.
If I had enough money for silver bus bars I think that I would buy a good oscilloscope and hunt down and eliminate all of the noise level signals I could identify until I had a noise floor that was about 120 db below normal maximum output. If the amplifier is reasonably stable and linear that would give all of the detail and holography that is possible given the speaker system and program source.
These things are very much dependent upon the equipment used and how much noise and hash there is in the environment.
Isolating the heat sinks from the grounded chassis and then connecting the collectors directly to then, was the same as connecting an antenna to your signal path.
Copper colored welding rod doesn't have much copper in it, it isn’t even all metal. The same problem occurs with some copper tubing and water pipe although your make good conductor from these if you select the correct type.
I also like copper bus bars, particularly for the return in a dual (+-)
power supply.
If I had enough money for silver bus bars I think that I would buy a good oscilloscope and hunt down and eliminate all of the noise level signals I could identify until I had a noise floor that was about 120 db below normal maximum output. If the amplifier is reasonably stable and linear that would give all of the detail and holography that is possible given the speaker system and program source.
conductors & sound
Thomas,
The practice of floating the heatsink, thereby introducing noise into the system is valid. So does running cables from the power supply caps to the transistors. It's only a question of degree.
But since noise is added to the heatsink, let's discard it. Maybe the industry would like to use aluminum bus bars instead, much cheaper than copper. Or pcb with aluminum tracks.
The main point I was putting across is "conductors do influence the sound". This, I believe, we are not in disagreement.
Where we do diverge is my choice of using silver. I do not install silver on amplifiers that are not up to scratch. Low floor noise, reasonable stability and linearity are not the only mechanisms in a top flight amplifier.
Thomas,
The practice of floating the heatsink, thereby introducing noise into the system is valid. So does running cables from the power supply caps to the transistors. It's only a question of degree.
But since noise is added to the heatsink, let's discard it. Maybe the industry would like to use aluminum bus bars instead, much cheaper than copper. Or pcb with aluminum tracks.
The main point I was putting across is "conductors do influence the sound". This, I believe, we are not in disagreement.
Where we do diverge is my choice of using silver. I do not install silver on amplifiers that are not up to scratch. Low floor noise, reasonable stability and linearity are not the only mechanisms in a top flight amplifier.
Good Copper Sounds Fine, Aluminium Sounds Like Coke Cans...
Hi Mike,
Are you saying that you used aluminium heatsink as a power conductor, or as output conductor ?.
I would expect aluminium used as a conductor to add harshness and glare, and drive me out the room.
I have tried ETI-480 design where the output stage is 'upside down' and the collectors common at the output point.
I used a heavy copper plate as the heatsink, insulated from the chassis and connected to both collectors, and the ouput taken from this copper plate.
I found this copper heatsink plate (fan cooled) to sound very fine indeed.
I also have a pro-audio amp that uses a copper fan cooled heatsink, and this has a pleasant sonic character that is not evident in other amplifiers.
Eric.
mcp said:
Hi Mike,
Are you saying that you used aluminium heatsink as a power conductor, or as output conductor ?.
I would expect aluminium used as a conductor to add harshness and glare, and drive me out the room.
I have tried ETI-480 design where the output stage is 'upside down' and the collectors common at the output point.
I used a heavy copper plate as the heatsink, insulated from the chassis and connected to both collectors, and the ouput taken from this copper plate.
I found this copper heatsink plate (fan cooled) to sound very fine indeed.
I also have a pro-audio amp that uses a copper fan cooled heatsink, and this has a pleasant sonic character that is not evident in other amplifiers.
Eric.
mcp:
Conductors can make a difference. But, it is the application not the material. It was the fact that the heat sink couples the circuit to a noisy world that made the problem not the fact it was made of Aluminum. Aluminum isn't used because it is impossible to make a clean solder connection to it. Bad solder joints are not conductors. Semi-bad solder joints are even more fun.
My problem is that I studied physics at the university and that back ground leads me to believe that metals do not leave significant electrical signatures. Their oxides and some of their non-metal alloys are different
Maybe we can agree to a difference of opinion here.
I visited your web site last night. Very impressive.
BTW, I have been part of a project that used silver bus bars in my early years. They measures 4 by 8 inches, were water cooled, and passed about 10,000 amps. That’s another story and it wasn't audio.
Conductors can make a difference. But, it is the application not the material. It was the fact that the heat sink couples the circuit to a noisy world that made the problem not the fact it was made of Aluminum. Aluminum isn't used because it is impossible to make a clean solder connection to it. Bad solder joints are not conductors. Semi-bad solder joints are even more fun.
My problem is that I studied physics at the university and that back ground leads me to believe that metals do not leave significant electrical signatures. Their oxides and some of their non-metal alloys are different
Maybe we can agree to a difference of opinion here.
I visited your web site last night. Very impressive.
BTW, I have been part of a project that used silver bus bars in my early years. They measures 4 by 8 inches, were water cooled, and passed about 10,000 amps. That’s another story and it wasn't audio.
Hi,
Mostly diode like behaviour.
The effect is mostly frequency dependent smearing...
I'm no chemist...but I think that you know as well as I do that non-metallic mixes into a conductor can't do much good.
Other than silveroxide, all other metaloxides are semi-conducting materials.
Basically you have a number of choices for conductors; knowing that the electrons don't penetrate the conductor deeply and mostly propagate around the surface, you don't want that part to oxidise.
You can use an enamel-like airtight coating at the expense of DA or you can use an appropriate conductor such as silver, gold or carbon.
The higher series resistance of the latter two may put you off put in practice it's less off a problem than people would assume.
Contaminants in materials generally tend to cause lattice break up so you want the conuctor as chemically pure as possible, 6N copper is a start.
Of course, now you're not just going to hit me with the hammer to kill that grasshopper on my head, you're also going to tell me that OFC copper was developped with completely different goals in mind, right?
Ouch...
That hurt.
And to get even: any metal, alloy. you name it has a sonic signature.
Cheers,
Mostly diode like behaviour.
The effect is mostly frequency dependent smearing...
I'm no chemist...but I think that you know as well as I do that non-metallic mixes into a conductor can't do much good.
Other than silveroxide, all other metaloxides are semi-conducting materials.
Basically you have a number of choices for conductors; knowing that the electrons don't penetrate the conductor deeply and mostly propagate around the surface, you don't want that part to oxidise.
You can use an enamel-like airtight coating at the expense of DA or you can use an appropriate conductor such as silver, gold or carbon.
The higher series resistance of the latter two may put you off put in practice it's less off a problem than people would assume.
Contaminants in materials generally tend to cause lattice break up so you want the conuctor as chemically pure as possible, 6N copper is a start.
Of course, now you're not just going to hit me with the hammer to kill that grasshopper on my head, you're also going to tell me that OFC copper was developped with completely different goals in mind, right?
Ouch...
That hurt.And to get even: any metal, alloy. you name it has a sonic signature.
Cheers,
Kuei:
So then the problem is the connector and not the conductor? (We
might be splitting hairs here).
Gold also has an oxide. The good part about gold and silver is that their oxide conducts about as well as the metal. And as you know, copper oxide can make a diode and aluminum oxide an insulator.
Steve:
Semi-conductor effects:
That’s what make mosfet amplify signals and diodes conduct in one direction.
mcp and the others;
In fairness, I must confess that I have never tried to listen to the signature sounds of materials or even components except for active devices or malfunctioning components. I have however, spent days hunting down rf leaks and ground loop problems, and in the end when the fuzz is in down to the component noise floor it sounded/looked/ worked best. Not all these were audio systems and the detectors were not always ears.
CHANGING THE SUBJECT A LITTLE:
I have been following a tread in the "Everything Else" form titled "Why all Recordings Sound like Crap" and recommend it as a good read. That thread in conection with this one begs a question.
My question is: what do those of you that have perfected your systems to the point that the difference between copper and silver are discernable; listen to as a program source?
This would be something I could spend money on.
So then the problem is the connector and not the conductor? (We
might be splitting hairs here).
Gold also has an oxide. The good part about gold and silver is that their oxide conducts about as well as the metal. And as you know, copper oxide can make a diode and aluminum oxide an insulator.
Steve:
Semi-conductor effects:
That’s what make mosfet amplify signals and diodes conduct in one direction.
mcp and the others;
In fairness, I must confess that I have never tried to listen to the signature sounds of materials or even components except for active devices or malfunctioning components. I have however, spent days hunting down rf leaks and ground loop problems, and in the end when the fuzz is in down to the component noise floor it sounded/looked/ worked best. Not all these were audio systems and the detectors were not always ears.
CHANGING THE SUBJECT A LITTLE:
I have been following a tread in the "Everything Else" form titled "Why all Recordings Sound like Crap" and recommend it as a good read. That thread in conection with this one begs a question.
My question is: what do those of you that have perfected your systems to the point that the difference between copper and silver are discernable; listen to as a program source?
This would be something I could spend money on.
fdegrove said:
How do you get a diode-like behavior? Silicon is also a semiconductor, but silicon itself doesn't behave like a diode. You need to take some P type silocon and N type silcon and form a PN junction with them. Otherwise, silicon diodes would be nothing more than a simple slab of pure silicon.
Where can I see measurements of this frequency-dependent smearing? Or is this just some subjective evaluation?
So far they seem to be rather benign.
But again, just because something is considered a simiconductor doesn't make it a diode.
There are electrons throughout the conductor. What do you mean they don't penetrate deeply? And if part of your surface is oxidized, so what? That just means you have a little less conductor. If you're worried about losing a few atoms' thickness of conductor, just use a slightly larger gauge conductor.
Why would copper be inappropriate?
Seems the ones worried about higher resistance are those who are worried about losing a small amount of surface.
I've got some copper wire here that's over 100 years old. Its lattices seem to be doing just fine.
Of course, now you're not just going to hit me with the hammer to kill that grasshopper on my head, you're also going to tell me that OFC copper was developped with completely different goals in mind, right?
Well, what can I say? It WAS developed with completely different goals in mind. When oxygenated copper (such as ETP) is heated in reducing atmospheres such as hydrogen, the copper can become embrittled.
Oxygenated copper (again, your garden variety ETP) is made using very precisely controlled amounts of oxygen. What the oxygen does is scavenge the impurities in the copper which would otherwise remain in solution when the copper crystalizes. So instead of remaining insolution, you end up with microscopic nodules of the oxides of the impurities which results in greater conductivity than if they were left in solution.
And to get even: any metal, alloy. you name it has a sonic signature.
But that's just a subjective evaluation and we may as well be talking about freezing photographs. So let's stick to physics.
se
Hi,
Much as it may surprise you, silveroxide actually conducts better than silver itself.
Still, as far as audio goes, that's not your main goal...although I must say that gold is by far the best sounding conductor.
Roughly 20 years ago there was a small Japanese spin-off company called "Isoda Electric".
They studied the sonic fingerprints of all possible metals and finally put a series of products on the market combining an emperical blend of various metals.
I/C and LS cables made of a balanced mixture...
While things have moved on since, ( reading the forum for about a year I think it may need yet another 20 years) in those days these cables were considered top of the bill and highly regarded generally speaking in Western-Europe.
The same applies to solder which is why Eric (Mr Feedback) is so keen on discussing different solder alloys and their impact on sound. ( mostly tonal/timbral balance related.
Getting a system right may take you a couple of years, so be prepared to accepted that it just won't do it by itself...paying attention to small details is always rewarding.
In short every single detail counts.
My source is vinyl, maybe 1% CD...well recorded works, most from the late fifties through this date.
As you may have guessed from previous posts I prefer a minimalist approach to recording.
Perhaps more on that later in the appropiate thread,
Cheers,
Much as it may surprise you, silveroxide actually conducts better than silver itself.
Still, as far as audio goes, that's not your main goal...although I must say that gold is by far the best sounding conductor.
Roughly 20 years ago there was a small Japanese spin-off company called "Isoda Electric".
They studied the sonic fingerprints of all possible metals and finally put a series of products on the market combining an emperical blend of various metals.
I/C and LS cables made of a balanced mixture...
While things have moved on since, ( reading the forum for about a year I think it may need yet another 20 years) in those days these cables were considered top of the bill and highly regarded generally speaking in Western-Europe.
The same applies to solder which is why Eric (Mr Feedback) is so keen on discussing different solder alloys and their impact on sound. ( mostly tonal/timbral balance related.
Getting a system right may take you a couple of years, so be prepared to accepted that it just won't do it by itself...paying attention to small details is always rewarding.
In short every single detail counts.
My source is vinyl, maybe 1% CD...well recorded works, most from the late fifties through this date.
As you may have guessed from previous posts I prefer a minimalist approach to recording.
Perhaps more on that later in the appropiate thread,
Cheers,
Photons.
Hi,
Take a picture of yourself, put it in the fridge and...
No Steve, I haven't really looked it up either but without that particular chemical property photography would never have happened.
Nonetheless, the arguement is irrelevant since you don't really want oxides to carry the audio signal.
And now you are going to ask the blind Shaolin priest why that is so, right?
Hi,
Take a picture of yourself, put it in the fridge and...
No Steve, I haven't really looked it up either but without that particular chemical property photography would never have happened.
Nonetheless, the arguement is irrelevant since you don't really want oxides to carry the audio signal.
And now you are going to ask the blind Shaolin priest why that is so, right?
Re: Photons.
No, I'm going to go looking for some other blind Shaolin priest who can actually provide some illumination instead of wasting people's time running them around in circles.
se
fdegrove said:Take a picture of yourself, put it in the fridge and...
No Steve, I haven't really looked it up either but without that particular chemical property photography would never have happened.
Nonetheless, the arguement is irrelevant since you don't really want oxides to carry the audio signal.
And now you are going to ask the blind Shaolin priest why that is so, right?
No, I'm going to go looking for some other blind Shaolin priest who can actually provide some illumination instead of wasting people's time running them around in circles.
se
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