when I updated.......
from "Jaycar's best" to "QED Silver Anniversary" there was a definite change in sound, for the better, in this case.
I heard it, my flatmate listened and then asked what I'd changed THIS time (he thought I'd been x-o tweaking again).
Without knowing what had been changed, he said, "it sounds sort of cleaner, more transparent"
I BELIEVE !!!!
from "Jaycar's best" to "QED Silver Anniversary" there was a definite change in sound, for the better, in this case.
I heard it, my flatmate listened and then asked what I'd changed THIS time (he thought I'd been x-o tweaking again).
Without knowing what had been changed, he said, "it sounds sort of cleaner, more transparent"
I BELIEVE !!!!
My 2 cents worth
Gentlemen:
I believe that there are auditable difference in different speaker cables and interconnects.
I also believe that there are technical explanations for most of the observed differences.
First there is the set of cases where the cable introduces a significant lump constant to the audio circuit. Added resistance as discussed by Bob Brines in post no.10, destabilizing capacitance brought up by stokessd in post no. 17, or phase changes resulting from frequency dependent impedance changes in long cables as explained by fdegrove in post no.54. (Long for one cable may be not as long for another. It depends upon how the cables are made). These cases have relatively simple explanations once the lump constants are known.
I believe the following pneumonia explains most of the mystery seem during equipment, interconnect, and cable listening tests. This helps explain the why cable selection seems to be dependent upon the quality of the system components as many have observed.
Given will designed and built amplifiers (any place in the audio system), so that there are no basic stability issues that lump constants will trigger; there is still a general problem of introducing foreign signals into the amplifying circuit from the cables via the amplifiers feedback circuit. Most amplifiers employing feedback have a direct signal path from the output terminal (and therefore the connecting cable) to either the input of the last stage, in amplifiers using local feedback, or to the input of the initial stage in those employing global feed back. If the cable is not designed to minimize rf-emi-? pickup, and if the input and output impedances of the amplifier are relatively high, the circuit amplifies the noise along with the signal. This happens asymmetrically in circuits with asymmetric feedback. Twisted shield cable is the poorest antenna configuration. Zip cord makes a good antenna and is used regularly by hams. Multi-conductor breaded cable is semi- poor as an antenna depending on how it is made. If breaded cable is twisted and develops an inductive reactance in the rf range it will be a better audio cable. There is also a problem with the commonly used single conductor shield cables using RCA type connectors. With these, any extraneous current carried by the shield becomes combined with the signal. Changing interconnects generally won’t help this case.
I like circlotron’s signature; “solid engineering and real physics.” There is a reason that professional audio (and other communication) systems use balanced inputs and outputs and twisted shielded cables with XLR connectors, or coaxial/ triaxial cable with BNC connectors. These provide the cleanest signals. They provide the greatest protection from extraneous noise and reduce the effects of any that creeps in. Silver or silver plate makes sense at UHF frequencies, but is nonsense in the audio range (IMHO); except for improved solder connections and joint flexibility. The wire need only be regular copper. Stranded wire 18 awg and larger is nice because it is easer to handle and not easily damaged. Shorter cables are generally better then longer. In the end, it may be necessary to go through the system with a good oscilloscope and do what is necessary to kill the hash, weed out the fuzz, and flatten the wobbles.
My favorite speaker cable is a Belden welding cable. Twisted shielded 12 awg stranded with thick ring lugs as connectors and the shielded solidly bolted to the system ground. For the utter fanatics it also comes in both 8 and 10 awg.
In my experience, there is no magic in electronics; there is only good engineering practice, carefull work, and occasionally; a beneficial mistake.
Tmac
Gentlemen:
I believe that there are auditable difference in different speaker cables and interconnects.
I also believe that there are technical explanations for most of the observed differences.
First there is the set of cases where the cable introduces a significant lump constant to the audio circuit. Added resistance as discussed by Bob Brines in post no.10, destabilizing capacitance brought up by stokessd in post no. 17, or phase changes resulting from frequency dependent impedance changes in long cables as explained by fdegrove in post no.54. (Long for one cable may be not as long for another. It depends upon how the cables are made). These cases have relatively simple explanations once the lump constants are known.
I believe the following pneumonia explains most of the mystery seem during equipment, interconnect, and cable listening tests. This helps explain the why cable selection seems to be dependent upon the quality of the system components as many have observed.
Given will designed and built amplifiers (any place in the audio system), so that there are no basic stability issues that lump constants will trigger; there is still a general problem of introducing foreign signals into the amplifying circuit from the cables via the amplifiers feedback circuit. Most amplifiers employing feedback have a direct signal path from the output terminal (and therefore the connecting cable) to either the input of the last stage, in amplifiers using local feedback, or to the input of the initial stage in those employing global feed back. If the cable is not designed to minimize rf-emi-? pickup, and if the input and output impedances of the amplifier are relatively high, the circuit amplifies the noise along with the signal. This happens asymmetrically in circuits with asymmetric feedback. Twisted shield cable is the poorest antenna configuration. Zip cord makes a good antenna and is used regularly by hams. Multi-conductor breaded cable is semi- poor as an antenna depending on how it is made. If breaded cable is twisted and develops an inductive reactance in the rf range it will be a better audio cable. There is also a problem with the commonly used single conductor shield cables using RCA type connectors. With these, any extraneous current carried by the shield becomes combined with the signal. Changing interconnects generally won’t help this case.
I like circlotron’s signature; “solid engineering and real physics.” There is a reason that professional audio (and other communication) systems use balanced inputs and outputs and twisted shielded cables with XLR connectors, or coaxial/ triaxial cable with BNC connectors. These provide the cleanest signals. They provide the greatest protection from extraneous noise and reduce the effects of any that creeps in. Silver or silver plate makes sense at UHF frequencies, but is nonsense in the audio range (IMHO); except for improved solder connections and joint flexibility. The wire need only be regular copper. Stranded wire 18 awg and larger is nice because it is easer to handle and not easily damaged. Shorter cables are generally better then longer. In the end, it may be necessary to go through the system with a good oscilloscope and do what is necessary to kill the hash, weed out the fuzz, and flatten the wobbles.
My favorite speaker cable is a Belden welding cable. Twisted shielded 12 awg stranded with thick ring lugs as connectors and the shielded solidly bolted to the system ground. For the utter fanatics it also comes in both 8 and 10 awg.
In my experience, there is no magic in electronics; there is only good engineering practice, carefull work, and occasionally; a beneficial mistake.
Tmac
Re: My 2 cents worth
High, low and no-feedback amplifiers would respond differently maybe?
So then, an easy experiment to try would be to thread the (ordinary) speaker cable a number of times through a hi-mu ferrite toroid to make a common mode choke, and place it right at the amplifier end. Twisted cable might be the best here because any RF etc induced in the cable should be identical (i.e. pure common mode) in both conductors.ThomasLMcLean said:
High, low and no-feedback amplifiers would respond differently maybe?
This makes me wonder sometimes!?
One of the first things myself had to change was cables.
Years ago i didn´t have the ability to improve parts of my
system and so didn´t believe in all magic.
Changing cables did always make a difference to me
and now i see some really deep tweekers talking really carefully
about cables changing sound. They do much more than just
changing a black gate coupling cap or something like this.
They have to fit the system or not. Finding the right cable is
a real challenge. Calculating here seems to solve nothing.
I have to admit i use QED Standard at the moment cause it fits my system
and i don´t have much others.
What suggestion to follow now?
One of the first things myself had to change was cables.
Years ago i didn´t have the ability to improve parts of my
system and so didn´t believe in all magic.
Changing cables did always make a difference to me
and now i see some really deep tweekers talking really carefully
about cables changing sound. They do much more than just
changing a black gate coupling cap or something like this.
They have to fit the system or not. Finding the right cable is
a real challenge. Calculating here seems to solve nothing.
I have to admit i use QED Standard at the moment cause it fits my system
and i don´t have much others.
What suggestion to follow now?
Looping the speaker cable through the torrid is hard to do. Three or Four ferrate torrid just slipped over the speaker cables near the amp would make a difference if rf is being pick up on the speaker cables. This configuration in used to balance currents in coax to antennas. The method that I like is to get a roll of 1 inch or larger braid and slip this over the speaker leads. The braid is attached to the Amp's ground system.
Braid over zip cord should improve zip cord as a speaker lead. The Belden cable is best because it is also twisted and the whole assembly is covered with a jacket.
"High, low and no-feedback amplifiers would respond differently maybe?"
I believe that they do.
Braid over zip cord should improve zip cord as a speaker lead. The Belden cable is best because it is also twisted and the whole assembly is covered with a jacket.
"High, low and no-feedback amplifiers would respond differently maybe?"
I believe that they do.
I collected old computer network cables when we were re-arranging the network with new ones. The cables are protected by a flexible plastic pipe, in which total 8 lines of 24 Gauge solid copper run and each line has separated insulation. I use these cables between my power amps and speakers for single and bi-wiring.
According to my experience, the commercial speaker cables give somewhat different sound, compared to my computer network cables. Some are better while some are worse, but the differences are always minor.
Anyhow, if I have feeling with 100$ as 1$, I would buy very expensive fancy and nice looking cables.
If I have feeling with 10$ as 1$, I would buy somewhat expensive and nice looking cables.
But, I have feeling with 1$ as 1$ or more, I would just keep the computer network cables and feel happy.
JH
According to my experience, the commercial speaker cables give somewhat different sound, compared to my computer network cables. Some are better while some are worse, but the differences are always minor.
Anyhow, if I have feeling with 100$ as 1$, I would buy very expensive fancy and nice looking cables.
If I have feeling with 10$ as 1$, I would buy somewhat expensive and nice looking cables.
But, I have feeling with 1$ as 1$ or more, I would just keep the computer network cables and feel happy.
JH
a few turn loop around a ferrite core
Hi Eric,
Is that a typo or you really mean it actually inject junk? because I am using the same method as Graham discribed for most of my audio gears power lines. But I am pretty sure the ferrite torods do improve the sound of my system, I think, you get me worry now
Chris
mrfeedback said:
Hi Eric,
Is that a typo or you really mean it actually inject junk? because I am using the same method as Graham discribed for most of my audio gears power lines. But I am pretty sure the ferrite torods do improve the sound of my system, I think, you get me worry now
Chris
Graham Gets The Prize....
This ought to be a usefull test to check out behaviour of amplifiers (line output stages too) when presented with induced noise and also inductive kickback from reactive loads.
A whole realm of testing setups and measurements come to mind immediately.
Might need a beefy amplifier to drive the auxillary winding.
Eric.
Yup, you got first go.Circlotron said:
This ought to be a usefull test to check out behaviour of amplifiers (line output stages too) when presented with induced noise and also inductive kickback from reactive loads.
A whole realm of testing setups and measurements come to mind immediately.
Might need a beefy amplifier to drive the auxillary winding.
Eric.
High mu ferrite toroids are used in some high end after market AC connecting cables to restrict rf hash from traveling into the power supply. A better approach is to include an emi filter inside the chassis and before the rest of the circuit.
The cable is simply passed through the toroid (Usually several of them) once, and not wrapped around the toroid. The toroids should be a close physical fit with the cable. This develops an impedance to rf currents traveling along the surface of the cable. Looping the cable through the toroid will also add some reactive impedance to the audio signal.
A copper braid will do a better job. Metal pipe also works. Coaxial signal cables are regularly run through conduit to insure minimum noise problems in commercial installations.
The toroid "black Magic" is discussed in the "Radio Amateur’s Handbook", any recent edition, under coaxial feed lines, and unbalanced antenna currents.
The cable is simply passed through the toroid (Usually several of them) once, and not wrapped around the toroid. The toroids should be a close physical fit with the cable. This develops an impedance to rf currents traveling along the surface of the cable. Looping the cable through the toroid will also add some reactive impedance to the audio signal.
A copper braid will do a better job. Metal pipe also works. Coaxial signal cables are regularly run through conduit to insure minimum noise problems in commercial installations.
The toroid "black Magic" is discussed in the "Radio Amateur’s Handbook", any recent edition, under coaxial feed lines, and unbalanced antenna currents.
hmm...
to be honest i dont even mind just thinking that expensive cables sound good - one of the reasons i like these: http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html the sheer effort and pain put into making these makes me think they sound good.
but...
different cables offer different capacitance, resistance and inductance, these DO effect the sound
to be honest i dont even mind just thinking that expensive cables sound good - one of the reasons i like these: http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html the sheer effort and pain put into making these makes me think they sound good.
but...
different cables offer different capacitance, resistance and inductance, these DO effect the sound
Everybody has one
Eric:
You are correct. Everyone has at least one rf stopping toroid, the computer of the monitor cable. These are used to keep the rf in and allow the manufacture to get a FCC type certificate.
fezz:
and others that love the though, heft, workmanship, and sight of well made metallic objects. These are objects of art and a joy forever. Art is in the eyes of the beholder. My object of desire is what I call a "well oiled machine" (includes electronics). I see efficiency of design, suitability to propose, brilliant integration, and such things.
Its a hobby. You pays your money and takes your choices. The choices in this hobby, in my opinion, are often not a clear as they could be.
easy listening
Eric:
You are correct. Everyone has at least one rf stopping toroid, the computer of the monitor cable. These are used to keep the rf in and allow the manufacture to get a FCC type certificate.
fezz:
and others that love the though, heft, workmanship, and sight of well made metallic objects. These are objects of art and a joy forever. Art is in the eyes of the beholder. My object of desire is what I call a "well oiled machine" (includes electronics). I see efficiency of design, suitability to propose, brilliant integration, and such things.
Its a hobby. You pays your money and takes your choices. The choices in this hobby, in my opinion, are often not a clear as they could be.
easy listening
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