Same here. Tho I disagree with SY on some points, I don't feel he calls for unreasonable proof. Just wish he'd "let it go" sometimes.
But I'll stop talking about SY, lest he get a swelled head.
The polarization of the Subjective & Objective camps confuses me sometimes.
Wouldn't you use both to arrive at the results you want? You wouldn't have to, I suppose, but it seems like a far better approach. (to me)
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Same here. Tho I disagree with SY on some points, I don't feel he calls for unreasonable proof. Just wish he'd "let it go" sometimes.
But I'll stop talking about SY, lest he get a swelled head.
The polarization of the Subjective & Objective camps confuses me sometimes.
Wouldn't you use both to arrive at the results you want? You wouldn't have to, I suppose, but it seem like a far better approach. (to me)
Well that is what the best audio engineers that I have know do, but I guess they get their fare share of grief that I was never aware of before now. Funny how things are when you step outside of your realm of friends and colleagues that have what you thought were common goals and interests in the end. I have no animosity towards Sy. He is from Texas after all 🙂
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I don't have a problem with blind testing, problem is to get two cables that will be acceptable for the test, remember cables don't have an influence on audio but you must use two cables with the same RLC for the test. 😕 When I started measuring some interconnects I have, the measurements were questioned, so I gave up.
I believe this is mostly true with inexperienced listeners. I've listened to some 'known' and 'expensive' systems that gave me a sick feeling for a few days although I expected it to sound exceptional.
Just different in design but still the same effects at work.
It is quite possible to change the character of a system with cable alone, not even talking about using 'strange' cables or altering FR. In this case the 'better' cable may depend on taste. When you hear more detail, better focus, cleaner highs etc. I guess one may say the cable is better.
well then label me "mid fi". You do like to label and insult and if you think that was an insult it isnt 😀
I distinquish between cables because the science and variables are different between the two but I wont bother that with a guy that has zero audio science knowledge but still thinks its meaningful to post he has 20+ years of selling audio (that is scary if you ask me) 😱
How does a person having any success in audio without the other? I guess Its obvious that subjectivity rules audio, Im happy its changing though and Im happy we demand science when we go into audio shops so guys like you do not get by on Bullpucky any more.
Its a good day when I see shops closing down because Bullpucky doesnt fly any more. I guess science is becoming more important that the Bullpucky that has driven the industry for 20 years (before the internet opened everyone's eyes)
I will continue to educate the young people as much as I can online so that they do not suffer the same fate as the Curly Woods guys do when they get too old to change 😉
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Do you have any documented proof that there is an audiable difference and some cables create better focus and cleaner highs?
If there were no unknowns then this thread would not exist.....
I believe that you have missed my point - a point which was probably badly expressed in the first place!
I am suggesting that although we may well be able to measure the simple, well known electrical properties of a piece of wire passing electrical impulses whilst wrapped in an insulating jacket, we do not know whether or not there are more complex interactions between the various components in such a 'cable' - be it interconnect OR speaker cable.
We do not know for sure the electro-chemical reactions at dielectric level and what effect these may have on a certain gague/resistance/capacitance per meter wire. THey may be different if any one other parameter is changed. And there may well be (many) other as yet not measurable factors at work. The energy involved may well be something such as the resistance to capacitance RATIO at work over a fixed length of cable.
Whatever the reason for cables influencing stage depth, focus, tone etc. of sound presentation, NO ONE has yet disclosed a measurement or measurements system which will properly account for such effects.
Yet - if scientific method counts for anything - we must accept that it is only by going from the known into the unknown that progress will be made.
Cables have been the items which have become the field of medicine-man marketing simply because the raw factual data available actually tells us very little indeed. The less that IS known the wilder the claims will be for strange cable twists, turns and crystalline structure! No-one can prove that these weird wires are no improvement other than by blind testing ... and then -as we have seen - no agreement can be reached on how such tests are to be conducted.
I would agree with Curly that learning to listen is essential as the scientific community has made any really view changing discoveries thus far. Messing about with cable rolling.....that is until some major breakthrough is made and which is verifiable in lab testing by those capable of fully understanding those lab test results is wasted effort and expense unless we have learned to listen against a background of frequent listening to non-amplified music in a live performance situation. Nor can one roll tubes, JFETs, Mosfets, tubes, caps etc without being aurally capable of distinguishing and identifying the changes experienced. I would also agree with BudP that a decent Litz construction wire will probably be the best choice for many until MUCH more is known.
What have I said in the past few days that was insulting to you Doug? I have tried to not play these petty games with you or others.
More decorum. Insult your way through life. Educate with ignorance Doug. That is the spirit!
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Well then I have speaker cable because the two insulated wires are twisted, damped and insulated again to form one cable. 😀
But we do know, we have 20 years of controlled tests telling us the science is accurate and the audibility isnt what these guys think it is.....do you ever wonder why NONE of them will do a properly controlled test? Its because they know the truth will screw up their world.
As for supporting the opinion of someone like Curly. Curly posts zero facts to back up his opinion so how can anyone with an once of science knowledge remotely care about his opinion. He offers nothing other then saying we are not "hi Fi" or we do not know how to listen. He offers 20 years of sales experience to try and support his arguements but we already knows nothing about science and he actually believes so called engineers (they are not EEs, they are useless in my world!!) at shows like CES, etc......they are there to sell but he didnt clue in to that point.
I will stand behind the those with TRUE credentials and years of research behind them. The likes of Dr. Geddes, Linkwitz, Toole, Roger Russel etc.
If you want to stand behind, no name, no credential, zero academics types then all I can say is good luck 😉
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Do all speakers of the same model sound identical? Do different rooms soud identical? And I wont even go to the psychology of that situation.
And lets keep something straight, recording (audio) engineers are not EEs, a lot of them have little more than a grade 12 education (which is really all they need, theres is a craft best learned from a mentor and experience).
As long as Im getting ingorance out of the audio world and shutting down anyone that sells based on ignorance then Im a happy guy.
Everytime I read a story about another hi end audio store is closing its doors I get a small lump in my throat 😉
Its a good year for those 😀
Whoooo boy. We let ourselves get dragged down into discussions way beyond the topic. Just like every other forum on cables/ICs I have ever read. I have a simple mind and think of things in a simple way: cables/ICs are important to me personally in my personal system and I don't need to consider it any other way. Certainly, just like amp designs, I would *like* to understand more about why/how different cables/ICs appear to affect the sound. And I do appreciate technical attempts at researching and understanding this. Granted, I don't always understand the data (which sometimes makes me cynical of the data) and that is why I asked Passion about the "reality" of the 19dB differential he measured. It seems from other responses that there are also others with the same question who are far more technically qualified than I am, so I don't feel so stupid.
But folks, if you page through the last 10 pages of comments here, I think you will see that a majority of them are way off topic and are aimed more at personal attacks (perhaps too strong a word, but I can't think of a better one at the moment). I am not really a "can't we all just get along???" person, but I was hoping this forum wouldn't degrade like many others.
So - back on the technical topic - is there a *general* agreement that the 19dB difference may not be critical because that although the scale of that difference (dB) is big, the absolute values that generated the delta are very small and inaudible? Now that is something I can understand.
Also, someone mentioned the mismatch between tubed pre's and Bryston amps. I know that is off topic, but I would like to know more about that - can you send me a message about it? I don't have that set up, but I recently got an older 3B and would like to know more about potential mistakes I could make. Thanks.
But folks, if you page through the last 10 pages of comments here, I think you will see that a majority of them are way off topic and are aimed more at personal attacks (perhaps too strong a word, but I can't think of a better one at the moment). I am not really a "can't we all just get along???" person, but I was hoping this forum wouldn't degrade like many others.
So - back on the technical topic - is there a *general* agreement that the 19dB difference may not be critical because that although the scale of that difference (dB) is big, the absolute values that generated the delta are very small and inaudible? Now that is something I can understand.
Also, someone mentioned the mismatch between tubed pre's and Bryston amps. I know that is off topic, but I would like to know more about that - can you send me a message about it? I don't have that set up, but I recently got an older 3B and would like to know more about potential mistakes I could make. Thanks.
I did not read where anyone stated that every speaker, even the same models, ever sound the same.
I don't use multiple speakers, amps, preamps or sources or rooms in my evaluations. The only thing that changes is cables, when I am trying to determine if I prefer one over another.
Never stated or read anyone say that recording engineers were engineers either
OK, I see there are only a 'science' or a 'faith' side. I guess then sometimes I don't have enough faith in science (as presented by some?) so I will do my own listening. 🙂
Maybe just buy a cable - I did and yes it was replacing the standard supplied cable but I was happy with the difference, I have an electronics degree but just used my ears...and was happy with the result.
Let the flaming begin 🙂
Let the flaming begin 🙂
"Never stated or read anyone say that recording engineers were engineers either"
From #5813
"Passion seems to think this is true and he is an engineer. Who do I believe if I can not trust an engineer?"
You seem to be unable to remember what you posted a few hours ago!
Your bluster about nothing is getting very boring.
From #5813
"Passion seems to think this is true and he is an engineer. Who do I believe if I can not trust an engineer?"
You seem to be unable to remember what you posted a few hours ago!
Your bluster about nothing is getting very boring.
I think I already pointed this out. But you can do ABX testing in the leisure of your home with your computer. There is no pass/fail only guessing/not guessing. You can pick any recording you like for this test. You could even get drunk during the test and no one would know. You can do an IC comparison test very easily by re-recording with various ICs the same song and then being able to directly compare what they are doing to the signal that is different than the other.
I see a very obvious advantage to using A/Bing. It allows DIRECT contrast between 2 events making things that normally your brain could just adjust to over time (similar to different ambient lighting being adjusted to with the eye) very obvious where normally it would be imperceivable. And there is no pre-condition that says you have to even pay attention to fast A/Bing. YOU have control of the switcher in personal ABXing and you can listen to A as long or as many times as you want before going over to B.
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