Good evening all...
As the title says, I wonder if I have made a terrible decision. At one time, I had cash to burn, and was the annoying regular at my neighborhood hi-fi shop. The senior guys were informative, patient, and called me when they had exciting deals! In my early twenties, I had a giant killer of a system that shamed my wealthy uncles, neighbors, and nearly anyone else that brought over albums or CDs. Fast forward to 2015, complete with two kids, and a mortgage... and I have to check my bank account before using my Visa card for the dollar menu. Sound familiar? Long story short, my much loved Genesis Genre 1's died an honorable death, and I didn't feel the $600.00 dollars required to replace the tweeters seemed worth it. After saving all of the checks that came in the birthday cards from creepy Aunts and Grandmothers, a few bonus checks from work... I picked up a set of (VERY gently used) NHT Classic 4's. God, are they sexy, my wife loves the look of them... BUT (and there is always a but, yes?) they sound like a steaming pile of dog ****... they barely image (something I observed first hand at my favorite local hi-fi shop, and had also read in countless positive reviews from reputable sources...). What gives? Nothing else has changed... I feel as if the speaker placement is sound... but they have abysmal imaging, sounding as if the vocals have somebody pinching their nose, and screaming through a paper towel tube. Oddly, I have a few discs where reed instruments are very realistic... and acoustic Celtic style music has been more accurate than I have ever remember... I was wondering if the bits inside my circa 1994 Bryston 3B NRB have dried up (read capacitors and the like...) or perhaps my memory of the Genesis of seven months having no music has faded. I'm so broke in this hobby of rich guys, my sphincter really puckers up at the fact that I may have made a crummy decision. My preamp is a bit newer, a NAD S100... circa 2004 (really, a wonderful item... beat the crap out of stuff ten times the cost). I have swapped numerous sources, DACs... I hate my life right now. Any thoughts? One of my audiophile buddies questioned my NAD C520 CD player... reading of folks that had good luck swapping out certain components (OpAmps, capacitors, removing transistors...). I am not sure this is the right forum for the post, but seeing as the loud speakers are the latest change, I thought this would be the best place to start...
As the title says, I wonder if I have made a terrible decision. At one time, I had cash to burn, and was the annoying regular at my neighborhood hi-fi shop. The senior guys were informative, patient, and called me when they had exciting deals! In my early twenties, I had a giant killer of a system that shamed my wealthy uncles, neighbors, and nearly anyone else that brought over albums or CDs. Fast forward to 2015, complete with two kids, and a mortgage... and I have to check my bank account before using my Visa card for the dollar menu. Sound familiar? Long story short, my much loved Genesis Genre 1's died an honorable death, and I didn't feel the $600.00 dollars required to replace the tweeters seemed worth it. After saving all of the checks that came in the birthday cards from creepy Aunts and Grandmothers, a few bonus checks from work... I picked up a set of (VERY gently used) NHT Classic 4's. God, are they sexy, my wife loves the look of them... BUT (and there is always a but, yes?) they sound like a steaming pile of dog ****... they barely image (something I observed first hand at my favorite local hi-fi shop, and had also read in countless positive reviews from reputable sources...). What gives? Nothing else has changed... I feel as if the speaker placement is sound... but they have abysmal imaging, sounding as if the vocals have somebody pinching their nose, and screaming through a paper towel tube. Oddly, I have a few discs where reed instruments are very realistic... and acoustic Celtic style music has been more accurate than I have ever remember... I was wondering if the bits inside my circa 1994 Bryston 3B NRB have dried up (read capacitors and the like...) or perhaps my memory of the Genesis of seven months having no music has faded. I'm so broke in this hobby of rich guys, my sphincter really puckers up at the fact that I may have made a crummy decision. My preamp is a bit newer, a NAD S100... circa 2004 (really, a wonderful item... beat the crap out of stuff ten times the cost). I have swapped numerous sources, DACs... I hate my life right now. Any thoughts? One of my audiophile buddies questioned my NAD C520 CD player... reading of folks that had good luck swapping out certain components (OpAmps, capacitors, removing transistors...). I am not sure this is the right forum for the post, but seeing as the loud speakers are the latest change, I thought this would be the best place to start...
Not actually being familiar with either your old or new speakers, I'll speak from the neutral corner...
If you are not happy with the sound, first check that all the drivers are actually working. Check if any of the drivers look like they've been replaced. If one or more have been replaced, they may have been installed backwards.
Check the crossovers for bad caps, or burnt parts.
If you can find somebody with similar speakers, listen to those for a comparison. If they sound the same, then that's how those are supposed to sound...
If you are not happy with the sound, first check that all the drivers are actually working. Check if any of the drivers look like they've been replaced. If one or more have been replaced, they may have been installed backwards.
Check the crossovers for bad caps, or burnt parts.
If you can find somebody with similar speakers, listen to those for a comparison. If they sound the same, then that's how those are supposed to sound...
Those are 86dB speakers. How many watts are you feeding them ? An underpowered amp could account for the bad imaging
Electronic components in your equipment won't have suddenly gone downhill during the 8 months of no use. So please don't get dragged into the parts swapping stupidity. It may just be that's how the speakers are, the suggestions for checking them out above are good.
Also, new speakers need time to break in. The sound could start to improve over time.
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I can second your finding on the NHTs. They were a great entry speaker for me a couple of decades ago, and I have bookshelf version of your Classic 4s. I happened to drop them into my very nice electronics for a listen a couple of weeks. Yes, they are as dead as can be. I also know what it is like to be spoiled by quality. I am glad that my NHT days are behind me. You will figure a way out of this for yourself, and it is not simply a matter of having a ton of cash. I wish you the best.
My advice is to live with them for a while. What many people call speaker break-in is sometimes nothing more than your own ears breaking-in to different sounding speakers. So give it some time before you change anything, and then if you still feel some improvement is possible, at least you'll be more familiar with them and have a better idea where to make changes.
Mike
Mike
Speaker is the heart of your system. I don't think the NHT can match up with your Genesis. Question is what would you do with your broken Genesis. If I were you (without speaker design knowledge) I will gamble on buying cheaper (high value) ribbon and plug them in on the Genesis.
NAD C520 is indeed in a different level with the rest of your system. FYI, several budget (modded) CDP blind tests have always put the CDP at the bottom of the ranking.
NAD C520 is indeed in a different level with the rest of your system. FYI, several budget (modded) CDP blind tests have always put the CDP at the bottom of the ranking.
Is this review telling us anything useful about NHT Classic 4's?
The NHT Classic Four Surround Sound Speaker System Measurements | Sound & Vision
The NHT Classic Four Surround Sound Speaker System Measurements | Sound & Vision
Yes. Care in placement will yield a very neutral sounding speaker. The OP may or may not like that.
Stereophile have reviewed the Classic Three's and their measurements can be found here.
NHT Classic Three loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Given what I know of NHT I would expect the fours to possess similar measured performance. You will want to listen without the grilles in place though!
The frequency balance of the three's is excellent and would give a pleasant tonal balance in room. Certainly there will be differences perceived due to room acoustics, placement and personal preference, but all in all these are not badly designed loudspeakers.
An independent measurement of the fours shows this.
With the fours being the top most trace. This should equate to a very listenable in room sound.
More measurements of the three can be found here.
SoundStage! Measurements - NHT Classic Three Loudspeakers (3/2007)
Again a very nice set of results.
Apparently they used steep xovers with xover frequencies around 800Hz and 3kHz. Given the drivers used this is pretty optimal.
So there are a few things that could possibly be going on.
1) There is something wrong with the loudspeakers.
2) There is something wrong with the rest of the system.
3) You're previous speakers were inherently coloured and you actually prefer that.
As others have said, simply not using your hifi is unlikely to result in anything going wrong. If it worked 7 months ago then it should be fine now. If the 3B is 20 years old then the caps i might be in need of replacing, especially because the insides of amplifiers can get pretty warm, but I wouldn't go pointing fingers at anything without actually knowing for sure.
I would be surprised if the crossover components in the loudspeakers had failed but if the loudspeakers use non polar electrolytics they could have dried out over time and changed in value. Loudspeakers are far more susceptible to a change in performance when electrolytics start to change in value over time than something like a power amplifier is.
NHT Classic Three loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Given what I know of NHT I would expect the fours to possess similar measured performance. You will want to listen without the grilles in place though!
The frequency balance of the three's is excellent and would give a pleasant tonal balance in room. Certainly there will be differences perceived due to room acoustics, placement and personal preference, but all in all these are not badly designed loudspeakers.
An independent measurement of the fours shows this.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
With the fours being the top most trace. This should equate to a very listenable in room sound.
More measurements of the three can be found here.
SoundStage! Measurements - NHT Classic Three Loudspeakers (3/2007)
Again a very nice set of results.
Apparently they used steep xovers with xover frequencies around 800Hz and 3kHz. Given the drivers used this is pretty optimal.
So there are a few things that could possibly be going on.
1) There is something wrong with the loudspeakers.
2) There is something wrong with the rest of the system.
3) You're previous speakers were inherently coloured and you actually prefer that.
As others have said, simply not using your hifi is unlikely to result in anything going wrong. If it worked 7 months ago then it should be fine now. If the 3B is 20 years old then the caps i might be in need of replacing, especially because the insides of amplifiers can get pretty warm, but I wouldn't go pointing fingers at anything without actually knowing for sure.
I would be surprised if the crossover components in the loudspeakers had failed but if the loudspeakers use non polar electrolytics they could have dried out over time and changed in value. Loudspeakers are far more susceptible to a change in performance when electrolytics start to change in value over time than something like a power amplifier is.
Imaging is virtually 100% the result of the speakers, so changing out electronics etc. is not going to help. (The room and setup is a factor, but not the main one.) Reviews in magazines won't help either as they are always positive. Basically if the speakers don't image well then they most likely never will. Look to correcting your mistake next time.
Maybe I'm wrong about this but isn't he confusing imaging with tonal balance or better yet frequency response issues?? His description of pinched vocals through paper towel tubes sounds like classic midrange suckout that gets designed into many hi-end speakers. My advice to him is to sell the speakers and get some second hand or even new Maggie MMG's at $600 or less. Set them up and stop fretting about caps and resistors and love the great MUSIC they make!
Be smart, get your Genesis Genre 1's back and working again. Look at the Beston round ribbon tweeters.
Strong possibility one speaker is damaged. I know you are all about imaging but maybe try each one separately in the middle of the room and see if they sound the same. Also stick your ear up next to each driver and make sure they're all working.
If you bought used, its possible they have been "repaired". I've seen some pretty horrendous things done to get speakers ready for resale. Make sure the look EXACTLY like new ones did (I.e., same drivers in them!).
And make sure you have them both R, L, connected in the same polarity.
And make sure you have them both R, L, connected in the same polarity.
Concur completely.
NHT speakers by and large do not sound like many high end speakers, they tend very much toward neutral tonal balance. And they image superbly as the measurements indicate. Unless something has gone wrong in the crossover(s)- and that's a strong possibility. I have four of the 3.3s on hand that all had some components blown in the crossovers, and that was apparently an intentional design choice to protect the drivers. Two hours and $20 later, they worked perfectly.
It might be useful to run an impedance check, which will be diagnostic of crossover or driver issues, and is easy to do.
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