I do remember Bruno said somewhere in this thread that the discrete input stage of the NC400 has lower distortion than any integrated OP-AMP.....
Amen! I wish Bruno just gave DIY the opamp. I suppose it's possible that Bruno gave us the more costly discreet for two reasons: DIY demanded it, plus it gave the OEM kit a sonic advantage.
Esperado: did not the poster to whom you replied agree with you? You seem to imply a conflict between your points where no conflict exists.
Pure speculation on the cause of perceived differences, none of which have been proved in any way.
Yes, lower distortion, but (apparently) less audio performance. The more I think about, the more I think his choices were to give performance advantage to more costly OEM, while pointing to better specs for DIY.
Please, someone explain this for us: How can Bruno possibly sell any OEM a Hypex, when OEM street price must be and will be several multiples of DIY (similar technology), while in the same breath as mentioning the price to the OEM, Bruno tells the OEM he gives them a worse sounding input stage. That simply is impossible to believe, sorry. OEMs would laugh him out of the room and tell him he's banned till he repents.
Let me know if you disagree with me (I have manufacturing OEM experience) above makes absolutely, positively no sense at all. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I love Bruno. I sympathize.
I'm saying:
Exactly what am I missing above?
Please, someone explain this for us: How can Bruno possibly sell any OEM a Hypex, when OEM street price must be and will be several multiples of DIY (similar technology), while in the same breath as mentioning the price to the OEM, Bruno tells the OEM he gives them a worse sounding input stage. That simply is impossible to believe, sorry. OEMs would laugh him out of the room and tell him he's banned till he repents.
Let me know if you disagree with me (I have manufacturing OEM experience) above makes absolutely, positively no sense at all. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I love Bruno. I sympathize.
I'm saying:
- DIY wrongly perceive advantage for discreet input stage vs. IC
- DIY demand discreet input stage for nc400
- Bruno responds yes to #2
- Some discreet parameters measure better than IC
- Bruno employs #4 as DIY marketing tool, to great success
- Bruno gives OEM the op-amp, requesting OEM forgive and ignore #5 ("don't look behind the curtain:" Wizard of Oz) because the IC sounds better, which he proves to them beyond any doubt, which they agree to keep confidential because to refuse hurts all concerned but most of all the OEM
Exactly what am I missing above?
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The reason to chose discrete components are:
- There is not integrated ones to feet perfectly *all* your requisites.
- It is more hype for your image or your market.
- It is less expensive for you.
Once done, you will justify your choice the best way you can, depending of your public.
I do not imply any conflict. If i understand well there are two models of Hypex Ncore amps.
One use discrete devices for input stage, the other OPA. Not the same power, not the same price. No need to argue endless with any chose of parts inside: just the matter is to listen and chose.
Any change of the topology in an amplifier will produce a signature change (and different measurements). But it is a *whole*, not the add of individual stages, as we are in closed loop configuration.
I never heard nc1200, but will at first opportunity.
DIY bridged nc400/SMPS600 mono block total cost about $1650 including import customs duty + estimate three hours assembly with precut cnc chassis.
Several OEM sell nc1200, starting about $5k MSRP. Some such as $6k Theta have dealer markup.
The closer is DIY performance to OEM, the less likely is OEM sale. Conversely, the greater is OEM acceptance, the more likely is there OEM performance advantage.
The fact that several OEM have jumped on board supports the conclusion that OEM offer a better performing amp. I tend to think OEM have already done extensive AB testing vs. the DIY kit we all own.
DIY bridged nc400/SMPS600 mono block total cost about $1650 including import customs duty + estimate three hours assembly with precut cnc chassis.
Several OEM sell nc1200, starting about $5k MSRP. Some such as $6k Theta have dealer markup.
The closer is DIY performance to OEM, the less likely is OEM sale. Conversely, the greater is OEM acceptance, the more likely is there OEM performance advantage.
The fact that several OEM have jumped on board supports the conclusion that OEM offer a better performing amp. I tend to think OEM have already done extensive AB testing vs. the DIY kit we all own.
Yes, lower distortion, but (apparently) less audio performance. The more I think about, the more I think his choices were to give performance advantage to more costly OEM, while pointing to better specs for DIY.
Please, someone explain this for us: How can Bruno possibly sell any OEM a Hypex, when OEM street price must be and will be several multiples of DIY (similar technology), while in the same breath as mentioning the price to the OEM, Bruno tells the OEM he gives them a worse sounding input stage. That simply is impossible to believe, sorry. OEMs would laugh him out of the room and tell him he's banned till he repents.
Let me know if you disagree with me (I have manufacturing OEM experience) above makes absolutely, positively no sense at all. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I love Bruno. I sympathize.
I'm saying:
Please, someone explain this for us: How can Bruno possibly sell any OEM a Hypex, when OEM street price must be and will be several multiples of DIY (similar technology), while in the same breath as mentioning the price to the OEM, Bruno tells the OEM he gives them a worse sounding input stage. That simply is impossible to believe, sorry. OEMs would laugh him out of the room and tell him he's banned till he repents.
Let me know if you disagree with me (I have manufacturing OEM experience) above makes absolutely, positively no sense at all. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I love Bruno. I sympathize.
I'm saying:
- DIY demanded discreet.
- Bruno gave DIY discreet.
- Something measures better in discreet vs. the op-amp.
- Bruno employs #3 as DIY marketing tool.
- Bruno gave OEM the op-amp, telling OEM to forgive and ignore #4 because the op-amp sounds better, which he demonstrates to them, which they agreed to keep confidential because to do otherwise hurts all concerned.
According to Bruno and Hypex, there is no material difference in the sound of the two modules.
And all we have seen so far to indicate any audible differences is speculation, hearsay and some subjective impressions from uncontrolled listening conditions.
I'm not so sure... since Hypex will not let OEM customers use the NC400, and DIY customers can not buy the NC1200.
It's a good business policy to avoid offering the same products to DIY and OEM customers. You avoid a direct comparison, and you also get a lot of free advertising in threads like this ..... 😉
Exactly!
and there might also be some thoughts on "branding" and "market position" involved in that choice. It seems that the only available OEM ncore board is aimed at the "reference" segment -taking its power rating and prices of the commercial amps using it into consideration. A nc400 variant should be cheaper and "adequate" for most hence aiming broader than the nc1200, but it would not be taken as seriously and neither carry the prestige that is involved with the "elite-orientation" of the nc1200.
Back then, Bruno mentioned that the power rating of the nc400 had to be well below that of the nc1200 to not threat the high end market.
- In other words what kinda high end goone would ever consider anything rated at only 200W/8R to be a serious alternative 🙂
The actual perceived performance difference between nc400 and nc1200 probably has very little to say as they are BOTH proving what they set out to do: class D can compete with the best -at any price/power range.
That said, I see no reason not to hold the particular implementation of either boards accountable for their perceived performances. The commercial nc1200 offerings seems to have gone lengths to get their implementation "right". I don't think it's wise to rule out implementation as a probably "cause" for the audible differences between nc400 and nc1200 builds. At least as a more likely cause than their respective buffer solutions...
Another and unrelated performance aspect is that nc1200 has a more rugged O/P stage featuring more paralleled devices. - That's bad for measured distortion but might also be a reason for it's perceived edge when it comes to bass performance because there is more to conduct the current when needed.
Interestingly the nc1200 features higher "theoretical" output impedance than the nc400 (theoretical because it is defined by the feedback rather than the output devices). - This can "ever so slightly" give more "meat" in bass and smooth the highs too...
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The closest thing to an ABX test I have seen implying some ncore tend to prove their is not sound difference between the nc400 and... a basic integrated amp 😉 : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-629.html#post3353004
No, I am sorry, passing into the w4s's active operation mide would probably bust my ears and my speakers...
So is it correctly understood that you cannot choose "all-active" operation because it only goes active when you need more signal than what the source produce ? -Which in practice would be the same as just calling it a passive pre...
From your description I somehow understood that you actually could choose to run it in all active mode too...
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